Wehrmacht September patch discussion

So stop spamming them and use snipers or HMG42 or 251 or PGs as the faction is intended to do.
You want to spam basic infantry and ride on that, you have OKW and USF.

Well, let me see here genius. What else should I build? Oh yes, 4 men pio squads, 4 men pgren squads, 4 men everything squads. Grens don't carry over to the late game at all, they underperform there, but they are supposed to be the backbone of your infantry core. Furthermore, they are expensive to reinforce and being only a 4 men squad don't have any staying power, like 4 men tommies have who are far tougher. Those were considered to be "slightly overperforming". If we use that insanity, we can fairly savely state that Grens are "slightly underperforming". Soon you battle 7 men cons as well at an earlier timing too.

Sniper. Well yes. Soon you will have to face 7 men squads with that too. Not to mention that all snipers are now just as fast. Meanwhile, your 4 men infantry squads have a hard time against anything. Face it buddy, grens are lackluster still and you sweettalking around it doesn't work.

Nothing for grens? They still struggle with their 4 men squads, especially vs the soon to be earlier on the field 7 men cons.

a daily reminder that in tourneys conscripts relied on the doctrinal PPSH in order to compete with LMG grens... by the time 7 man cons are out any cons player is blown out of the water...


7 man to T3 is perfectly justified

I for one would like to see grenadiers being able to build sandbags at stock and would like to see the panther getting its on the move accuracy to 0.75 in compensation for its poor ai abilities and to give it a fighting chance to fight off the hordes of long range tank destroyers.

why do soo many people want to buff the panther??... no its completely fine considering how common and spammable it is in teamgames... u even see it quite often in 2v2s

@modteam:

Will pioneers with sweeper upgrade also get the additional repair speed upgrade from Strategic Reserve?
If not you should make it possible- faster repair time is one of the major selling points of the doctrine.

I for one would like to see grenadiers being able to build sandbags at stock and would like to see the panther getting its on the move accuracy to 0.75 in compensation for its poor ai abilities and to give it a fighting chance to fight off the hordes of long range tank destroyers.

The panther is not suposed to fight td,s just because its ai is lacking. Its a tank the target for td,s as in tank destroyers. Wich lack ai completely an aa as wel and also lack heavy crush, lack high hp, lack high armour.

The panther is fine. It has enough pro and for it to be balanced imo.

Panthers AI isn't even lacking... It doesn't do burst damage but those 3mgs do work.

As long as the unit buff allied units with dmg modifiers, it will always be hard to balance. You could try reverting some nerfs and make it so it only affects your own tanks and only allied infantry/support weapons.

+1 If you take away its buffs to allied units that also makes its performance more consistent between game modes. Rather than it being meh in 1v1s but super strong in team games

+1 If you take away its buffs to allied units that also makes its performance more consistent between game modes. Rather than it being meh in 1v1s but super strong in team games

+2

It should be able to stand on its own in 1v1 where it does not have that ability first before trying to balance it in team games. If the effect on teammates is what makes it too strong, that should be what is nerfed.

Now it is time to give Ostheer's Pios K98 (~Volk DPS) so they don't get a DPS nerf with flamer-upgrade, because their weapon-profile gets smashed.

(Then give weapon-crews also a K98, same stats as OKW-crews.)

To compensate that make the shock-grenade non-doc for Grens (like for OKW-Pios).

Next ideas in future.




Edit: Something that would make balance also better would be to make StuG E nondoc, move Brummbär to the commanders instead.

T3:
StuG E
StuG G
Panzer 4

T4:
Ostwind
Panzerwerfer
Panther

-> Revamp StuG E (~ give it same stats as leIG18. Less range)

-> Increase StuG G's price to 100 fuel, range to 55.


I will make a small review mod. I understand that only small changes will be made.

why do soo many people want to buff the panther??... no its completely fine considering how common and spammable it is in teamgames... u even see it quite often in 2v2s

Because bad people want to lean on op units and which unit screams more "WUNDAWAFFE!" then panther?

How about command Panzer4 change like this？
Replace model by Panzer4.J ,increase cost to about 150 fuel，aura still reduce to 10%

why do soo many people want to buff the panther??... no its completely fine considering how common and spammable it is in teamgames... u even see it quite often in 2v2s

No it is not, it is not scaling late games.
As a 2v2 Ost player, at most you get 1 panther each if the game drags on. You end up 2 panthers vs 2 Jacksons + 2 SU85 or 1FF + 1 Churchill, depending who you match up with.

These double TD zone out panthers totally on vet. Panthers are expensively useless late games because allies have no reason build med tanks.

I feel like many of these balance changes are trying to address the issues in team games, which is not really seem in other rts games...



Imo the biggest problem with OST is the reinforcement cost of of grenadiers. Why can't they make their reinforcement cast 24~28 before the lmg upgrade and 30 after it?

Well, let me see here genius. What else should I build? Oh yes, 4 men pio squads, 4 men pgren squads, 4 men everything squads. Grens don't carry over to the late game at all, they underperform there, but they are supposed to be the backbone of your infantry core. Furthermore, they are expensive to reinforce and being only a 4 men squad don't have any staying power, like 4 men tommies have who are far tougher. Those were considered to be "slightly overperforming". If we use that insanity, we can fairly savely state that Grens are "slightly underperforming". Soon you battle 7 men cons as well at an earlier timing too.

Sniper. Well yes. Soon you will have to face 7 men squads with that too. Not to mention that all snipers are now just as fast. Meanwhile, your 4 men infantry squads have a hard time against anything. Face it buddy, grens are lackluster still and you sweettalking around it doesn't work.

Grens are great damage dealers when vetted up. I think the biggest problem for them is their terrible early game power.

No it is not, it is not scaling late games.
As a 2v2 Ost player, at most you get 1 panther each if the game drags on. You end up 2 panthers vs 2 Jacksons + 2 SU85 or 1FF + 1 Churchill, depending who you match up with.

These double TD zone out panthers totally on vet. Panthers are expensively useless late games because allies have no reason build med tanks.

They have no reason to build medium tanks because they get hard countered by the Panther lmao

Allied TD spam is the direct result of Axis heavy tank concentration, and that absolutely includes the Panther.

Grens are great damage dealers when vetted up. I think the biggest problem for them is their terrible early game power.

Yes and then lose that vet in the blink of an eye because 4 men lol. Ostheer's problem is facing superior squad sizes, whom lose perhaps 1/5 or 1/6 (or less if upgraded) of their fire power when losing a model. Lose a model as ostheer and you are down 25% in most cases (pgrens or stormtroopers), unless upgraded grens. However, with upgraded grens, you lose one model and are in a very dangerous situation, one good hit from anything can wipe that squad easily. Not to mention that retreating with only 2 models left is risky, as you can get wiped very easily. Compare this to to losing 2 or 3 models and retreating on a 5 or 6 model squad.

Then we get to the point where we have tier 4 with powerful units, which just don't work in most 1v1 scenarios. The needed investment to get 1 panther, which will then get swamped by everything else the enemy has build up in great quantity, is not worth it. You still need to crutch on tier 3. There is no way around it. However good stugs may be, fighting jacksons, fireflies or multiple mediums with a stug or 2 and a p4, is very frustrating, as your mediums get shutdown pretty easily by those long range tank destroyers, who have turrents mind you. Not to mention the easily accessible handheld at for infantry of other factions, such as bazookas and ptrs. Althoug ptrs and bazooka aren't the best handheld at, they do add up against tier 3 units pretty easily, especially when considering all the other stuff facing your tier 3 units.

No it is not, it is not scaling late games.
As a 2v2 Ost player, at most you get 1 panther each if the game drags on. You end up 2 panthers vs 2 Jacksons + 2 SU85 or 1FF + 1 Churchill, depending who you match up with.

These double TD zone out panthers totally on vet. Panthers are expensively useless late games because allies have no reason build med tanks.

if the opponent built 2 SU-85s then youve won the game.... they sunk all their fuel and popcap on AT and barely have AI to counter you... build a Pwerfer an AT gun and a couple of infantry squads and youre set...

if the opponent built 2 SU-85s then youve won the game.... they sunk all their fuel and popcap on AT and barely have AI to counter you... build a Pwerfer an AT gun and a couple of infantry squads and youre set...

You are forgetting superior infantry with higher model counts that fight alongside this armada. Then we have the indirect fire that is always around, which is more effective against ost lower squad sizes. If you get 2 panthers, you have no room or resources left for AI vehicles, which you desperately need to fight the higher model and more effective infantry of the allied opponents. If you get AI vehicles, you have no room or resources for 2 panthers and your AI vehicle gets bullied by TDs and you still can't fight the infantry hordes.

You are forgetting superior infantry with higher model counts that fight alongside this armada. Then we have the indirect fire that is always around, which is more effective against ost lower squad sizes. If you get 2 panthers, you have no room or resources left for AI vehicles, which you desperately need to fight the higher model and more effective infantry of the allied opponents. If you get AI vehicles, you have no room or resources for 2 panthers and your AI vehicle gets bullied by TDs and you still can't fight the infantry hordes.

the panzerwerfer is great for fighting vehicle and artillery spam... plus the only real arty that poses a threat to grens are either rocket arty... tanks scotts... or pack howis...

rocket arty can be suicided at by panzers along with scotts...tanks can be pushed back by AT guns... and the pack howi can be counterbatteried by the panzerwerfer...

the best strat to do when the enemy builds 2 SU/jacksons is to either

1. get MG-42s and creep em forward with panzerwerfers to kill enemy arty

2. creep grens forward but keep them separate to cap territory...

3. move the AT gun forward to dissuade tanks from killing ur stuff

4. laugh how at least 30% of their popcap is consumed by AT... while you counter em with basic infantry and artillery