USA September patch discussion

Great so in your opinion the Ostheer mortar is recycled garbage and since the UKF and Soviet mortar are about the same with they are also garbage.

In other word it is not the USF mortar that is garbage but all mortars.

I don't use either mortar, but my team will use the ostheer mortar. Ostheer will win mortar battles vs USF and Soviets and make maxims obsolete. If ostheer does not go sniper or skip tier 1 they usually build a mortar or 2. If they build for a mortar strat you don't build the USF mortar to counter it.

You want to go for build orders which matched your skill vs your opponents skill. I have played too many matches where ostheer defended me off the fuel point with mortars and mgs, but got destroyed once the mortar hts come out. How do players lose when they have both fuels and rush early p4s?

I don't use either mortar, but my team will use the ostheer mortar. Ostheer will win mortar battles vs USF and Soviets and make maxims obsolete. If ostheer does not go sniper or skip tier 1 they usually build a mortar or 2. If they build for a mortar strat you don't build the USF mortar to counter it.

Then things are working as original indented since the USF mortar was not introduced to win duels vs the Ostheer mortar.

Developer Comments: We wanted to give USF more means to counter garrisons without grenades and a mobile smoke platform as well as diversify their opening.

Then things are working as original indented since the USF mortar was not introduced to win duels vs the Ostheer mortar.

Developer Comments: We wanted to give USF more means to counter garrisons without grenades and a mobile smoke platform as well as diversify their opening.

You are forced to fight ostheer mortars and go against mgs, so we always get a pak Howie or mortar ht. It is kinda like how a pair of leigs making emplacements void.

Everyone who plays usf for long periods of time knows the usf mortar is garbage.

is that why pro player use it ?

You are forced to fight ostheer mortars and go against mgs, so we always get a pak Howie or mortar ht. It is kinda like how a pair of leigs making emplacements void.

I have made 2 points:
1) USF mortar is inline with other mortars, basically all mortars are pretty close, (so either all mortars are garbage or none, so pls no more USF is garbage claims).

2) Ostheer mortars went from tot of self to being slightly better than the rest so it was affected the most by the nerfs.

I have little to add to this. Have a nice day.

Once again the USF balance thread has been derailed by axis mains hell bent on arguing that actually OST has a worse mortar.

-1 / 10 reading skills there. I will Just ignore that sentence.

How is this relevant for USF balance? Please leave this thread and go back to the OKW one to brainstorm more dream units. No one can even give feedback here because there is a page of posts from certain people trying to change the subject constantly

Once again USF thread gets clogged with nonsense of unit being bad when stats prove they are not...

When USF main players bring up a sensible balance idea, lots of fanbois start to derail it with "RUFLES UP / TANKS UP / BUFF USF"
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The ostheer mortar has a slight edge over the usf mortar. Ostheer also has pios for los. Every good usf main ignores the usf mortar in 2's and up. It is only useful when your opponent does not build mortars.

I Mean.. I know I'm not a great player but the smoke against Ost mgs alone make the usf mortar worth it. It's not a game maker anymore it's a force multiplier. People look at ANY unit that requires micro and automatically write it off. It's not the set and forget wipe machine it was but it's not trash either. It's job is to provide smoke and garrison denial without a fuel cost as an alternative to grenade techs. It does that.

I Mean.. I know I'm not a great player but the smoke against Ost mgs alone make the usf mortar worth it. It's not a game maker anymore it's a force multiplier. People look at ANY unit that requires micro and automatically write it off. It's not the set and forget wipe machine it was but it's not trash either. It's job is to provide smoke and garrison denial without a fuel cost as an alternative to grenade techs. It does that.

Micro is not an issue. Winning is. If you go USF mortar vs a equally skilled ostheer player you will get your ass handed to you. This is not in 1v1's, this is 3's,4's and sometimes 2's. I did not even mention the other builds which will push you in your base if you try to open with the Usf mortar. If you play casually you may do whatever the fuk you want.

Smoke works when you have grenades unlocked. You cannot have a mortar and nades teched without being overpowered by multiple squads.

Micro is not an issue. Winning is. If you go USF mortar vs a equally skilled ostheer player you will get your ass handed to you. This is not in 1v1's, this is 3's,4's and sometimes 2's. I did not even mention the other builds which will push you in your base if you try to open with the Usf mortar. If you play casually you may do whatever the fuk you want.

Smoke works when you have grenades unlocked. You cannot have a mortar and nades teched without being overpowered by multiple squads.

i play mainly team games and can say that the mortar is a great help. in team games controlling the field is key, ost likes their mgs. if you can make it so their mg isnt doing anything you are taking away their greatest early game strength. if you dont see ass grens in their lineup i find a mortar to be a great investment as it takes away their tool to equalize the rifle/ gren matchup.

I just remember one of my mortar crews killing a Sdkfz 222 with their rifles one time. They deal the full 16 damage for whatever reason, and are operated bolt-action like k98s. I really wish they had carbines instead if I'm being honest, for historical accuracy purposes, but from a gameplay perspective let's just say I really appreciated their kar98 profile that game.

The main problem with the USF mortar (as well as it's main benefit) is it is a 240 manpower smoke dispenser. The AOE and scatter for HE shells are so terrible that the autofire is basically a writeoff and the barrage is only good versus structures (which is basically the only time you'll be using it.) As has been said before here, if Ostheer has a mortar of their own it's more or less at it's mercy, and probably much moreso with the new CB buff. Versus OKW you shouldn't be building it at all.

Basically, If you can avoid spending manpower on it, it's usually for the best; I've personally been trying to get nades earlier on and dish smoke out with the LT/CPT. Captain is especially useful versus MGs because of his veterancy ability "On Me!", which is one of the strongest utility abilities in the game, and 100% free. The downside is that's 15 fuel and 150mp to be able to spend muni most players are usually rushing to put on BARs.

Rifle Company is also a strong contender versus Ostheer MG setups, though Fire Up admittedly comes rather late. Combined with grenades, however, it can allow you to flank MG positions much easier, and wipe them out. The RE flamer is also useful but I personally don't go for it.


By the way, what is this thread even for, now that they've said they're done adding major changes to the patch?

I just remember one of my mortar crews killing a Sdkfz 222 with their rifles one time. They deal the full 16 damage for whatever reason, and are operated bolt-action like k98s. I really wish they had carbines instead if I'm being honest, for historical accuracy purposes, but from a gameplay perspective let's just say I really appreciated their kar98 profile that game.

The main problem with the USF mortar (as well as it's main benefit) is it is a 240 manpower smoke dispenser. The AOE and scatter for HE shells are so terrible that the autofire is basically a writeoff and the barrage is only good versus structures (which is basically the only time you'll be using it.) As has been said before here, if Ostheer has a mortar of their own it's more or less at it's mercy, and probably much moreso with the new CB buff. Versus OKW you shouldn't be building it at all.

Basically, If you can avoid spending manpower on it, it's usually for the best; I've personally been trying to get nades earlier on and dish smoke out with the LT/CPT. Captain is especially useful versus MGs because of his veterancy ability "On Me!", which is one of the strongest utility abilities in the game, and 100% free. The downside is that's 15 fuel and 150mp to be able to spend muni most players are usually rushing to put on BARs.

Rifle Company is also a strong contender versus Ostheer MG setups, though Fire Up admittedly comes rather late. Combined with grenades, however, it can allow you to flank MG positions much easier, and wipe them out. The RE flamer is also useful but I personally don't go for it.


By the way, what is this thread even for, now that they've said they're done adding major changes to the patch?

Scatter values for auto-fire

ostheer
mortar_team_81mm_mp
Scatter
Scatter angle 10
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 0.08
Distance max 8

USF
m1_81mm_mortar_squad_mp
Scatter
Scatter angle 10
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 0.08
Distance max 8

pm-82_41_mortar_squad_mp
Scatter
Scatter angle 8
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 0.1
Distance max 8

The USF mortar has incidental scatter with Ostheer one and superior to Soviet one. CAN WE now GIVE a REST PLS.

I just remember one of my mortar crews killing a Sdkfz 222 with their rifles one time. They deal the full 16 damage for whatever reason, and are operated bolt-action like k98s. I really wish they had carbines instead if I'm being honest, for historical accuracy purposes, but from a gameplay perspective let's just say I really appreciated their kar98 profile that game.

The main problem with the USF mortar (as well as it's main benefit) is it is a 240 manpower smoke dispenser. The AOE and scatter for HE shells are so terrible that the autofire is basically a writeoff and the barrage is only good versus structures (which is basically the only time you'll be using it.) As has been said before here, if Ostheer has a mortar of their own it's more or less at it's mercy, and probably much moreso with the new CB buff. Versus OKW you shouldn't be building it at all.

Basically, If you can avoid spending manpower on it, it's usually for the best; I've personally been trying to get nades earlier on and dish smoke out with the LT/CPT. Captain is especially useful versus MGs because of his veterancy ability "On Me!", which is one of the strongest utility abilities in the game, and 100% free. The downside is that's 15 fuel and 150mp to be able to spend muni most players are usually rushing to put on BARs.

Rifle Company is also a strong contender versus Ostheer MG setups, though Fire Up admittedly comes rather late. Combined with grenades, however, it can allow you to flank MG positions much easier, and wipe them out. The RE flamer is also useful but I personally don't go for it.


By the way, what is this thread even for, now that they've said they're done adding major changes to the patch?

I'm glad someone else gets it.

I guess all we can do now is find a strategy that fits the new changes and discuss it. I'm deffinently going to try riflecompany again.

Scatter values for auto-fire

ostheer
mortar_team_81mm_mp
Scatter
Scatter angle 10
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 0.08
Distance max 8

USF
m1_81mm_mortar_squad_mp
Scatter
Scatter angle 10
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 0.08
Distance max 8

pm-82_41_mortar_squad_mp
Scatter
Scatter angle 8
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 0.1
Distance max 8

The USF mortar has incidental scatter with Ostheer one and superior to Soviet one. CAN WE now GIVE a REST PLS.

That is for autofire. The barrage is what gives mortars dominance. The exceptions are pak howies and scotts(they are the opposite)

What's the need to cut off the part of the sentence that includes the AOE.

ALL mortars are weaker post patch, more so in auto fire mode. (ISG/Pack Howie are not mortars. While ISG is not great, it has a reduced power level gap than before)

USF: is a smoke dispenser and garrison counter.
OH: can actually do something but it's no longer set up and forget.
SU: part of a tier most people forget is there unless they need a Zis gun.

You have already said that

1) USF mortar is inline with other mortars, basically all mortars are pretty close, (so either all mortars are garbage or none).

2) Ostheer mortars went from tot of self to being slightly better than the rest so it was affected the most by the nerfs.

I agree, specially with the bolded part. Mortars are situational rather than "i have mp and i want to bleed my opponent". But i don't think the USF mortar is EXACTLY inline with all other mortars. It's like saying that the Pack Howie is inline with the ISG. IF YOU IGNORE that they have completely different AoE profiles. I wouldn't say having 45% less AoE on the inner and mid range makes it equal to either Soviet or OH mortar. Which is totally fine for what they need it for.

Also, different game modes, different needs.

Scatter values for auto-fire

ostheer
mortar_team_81mm_mp
Scatter
Scatter angle 10
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 0.08
Distance max 8

USF
m1_81mm_mortar_squad_mp
Scatter
Scatter angle 10
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 0.08
Distance max 8

pm-82_41_mortar_squad_mp
Scatter
Scatter angle 8
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 0.1
Distance max 8

The USF mortar has incidental scatter with Ostheer one and superior to Soviet one. CAN WE now GIVE a REST PLS.

Firstly, these are the autoattack values. You... deliberately, most likely, left out the barrage values.

Furthermore, why not take a look at the AOE distance values?
Oh, right, it doesn't fit the "USF OP" narrative, where poor, poor Ostheer gets beaten at any range by any equivalent USF unit, and Ostheer uniquely suffers from the IDF nerfs because MG spam is totally a strategy employed by literally any other faction.

Everyone here has moved on; you're the only one who cannot seem to accept the fact that the USF mortar is worse than the Ostheer one. The very mention of it seems to trigger a kneejerk response by you.

Hi. Nice discussion with lots of good arguments (definitely this forum is not garbage as sb wrote earlier) I'll add my bit

From my perspective the key of the problem is that USF faces two completely different opponents (OST and OKW). Ost is a static and 4 man squad army - mortars and indirect fire weapons decimate them so much that balance team tries to tone such weapons down. On the other hand, OKW is highly mobile and much better close quarters. If they keep moving, indirect fire needs to be much more potent to even hit them. This leads to problems with balancing the game.

It also partially answers the reason why ost mortar was laser guided - to be effective against moving USF units it had to be because against players who move their usf infantry, mortars are generally bad (USF can move a lot as their dps on the move is few times higher that, for example, of grens). Of course USF players who camp suffered from laser ghuided mortars but I think that was the intention. (A fun fact is that there was a patch a few years ago when ost mortars really quick fired to compensate for playing against units that are good on the move from USF and Sov - people really complained and colled them turbo mortars - still back then the same issue was being addressed). I don't think it is easy to balance stuff like that and there will always be some problems here. My solution would be to maybe make grens 5 man squads after maybe last battlephase or like rear echelons with vet 3 - then it would be so much easier to balance indirec weapons such as mortars, pak howies, scotts etc. Still, lets test the new patch as it looks promising and thank you again the team for making the game even better

Actually, the most significant reason why the soviet mortar isnt used, I feel, is because the zis barrage is for the most part more useful and directly forces retreats / wipes (on top of the zis being invaluable to deal with vehicles anyway)

The USF mortar has a similar relationship with LVs, which do the same job of dealing with MG play. Pack howi is obviously the later, superior option.

Either way, this obsession with balancing by fractions seems absolutely absurd. Units don't compete with each other directly - overall faction balance and creating a good sandbox of options is actually pertinent to gameplay. It's entirely possible for a unit to be strictly worse numerically for cost, but by virtue of the army it counters and the army its used by, completely relevant and useful.

In this regard, USF in 1v1 doesnt seem to need a mortar early on, since MP timing for LVs are far more important. I think there are niche applications (i've seen late purchases to take out overextended flak HQs etc), and in 2v2 where the map fills up much faster mortars seem more prevalent. Either way, USF doesnt suffer overly so in specific faction matchups and situations that a better mortar would be necessary to restore balance, neither does the USF mortar create overpowering early game compositions any more (like it did in the ostheer matchup a couple years ago). It's just a nice unit to have in the sandbox as an option, which seems to be perfectly acceptable.

Firstly, these are the autoattack values. You... deliberately, most likely, left out the barrage values.

You said the autofire was worthless because (besides AOE) the scatter was terrible:

The AOE and scatter for HE shells are so terrible that the autofire is basically a writeoff

Vipper quoted the autofire scatter stats to prove that it is identical to the GrW 34 and that what you said is not true. He even underlined the very same sentence to let you know which part he was trying to disprove.

Furthermore, why not take a look at the AOE distance values?

The autofire AOE is 15.892 while the GrW 34's is 17.678, so even though yes it is slightly worse, it isn't really fair to call it "a writeoff".

Firstly, these are the autoattack values. You... deliberately, most likely, left out the barrage values.

That an utter and complete BS accusation, pls do make this personal.

This is your claim:
The main problem with the USF mortar (as well as it's main benefit) is it is a 240 manpower smoke dispenser. The AOE and scatter for HE shells are so terrible that the autofire is basically a writeoff and the barrage is only good versus structures (which is basically the only time you'll be using it.)

You brought up auto-fire and claim that the auto-fire scatter is "so terrible". I simply provided the numbers that prove you wrong.

Furthermore, why not take a look at the AOE distance values?
Oh, right, it doesn't fit the "USF OP" narrative, where poor, poor Ostheer gets beaten at any range by any equivalent USF unit, and Ostheer uniquely suffers from the IDF nerfs because MG spam is totally a strategy employed by literally any other faction.

I have pointed out that USF mortar has lower AOE and Range, and that is the intentional design of the unit as already posted.

If the unit had the same range AOE and Range the USF mortar would actually be a superior option due to faction design that requires static play from Ostheer and due to smaller squad sizes.

In addition you seem to completely fail to understand the implication of making the USF mortar a Ostheer clone. Ostheer are designed to rely on their support weapons and in order to do so they need to be superior. If they where not pathfinder and mortar would completely dominate Ostheer play who are bad at launching attacks.

Everyone here has moved on; you're the only one who cannot seem to accept the fact that the USF mortar is worse than the Ostheer one. The very mention of it seems to trigger a kneejerk response by you.

Again pls do not make this personal and do not speak on behalf of everyone.

The USF mortar is inferior to the Ostheer one, that is fact. But the gap is small and the mortar patch has actually reduced that gap.

I sick and tied of reading things that completely inaccurate
"the USF mortar was nerfed" or "or the USF mortar is garbage"

Unfortunately it seems that I have to repeat my 2 points:

1) USF mortar is inferior to ostheer one but not by allot and probably better than soviet, so it is inline with other mortars, basically all mortars are pretty close, (so either all mortars are garbage or none).

2) Ostheer mortars went from top of self to being slightly better than the rest so it was affected the most by the nerfs.

Now can we pls put this myths at rest and move on?