Riflemen need a buff or Volks need a nerf?

No?

At maximum range (35), the Rifle's Garand has ~1.7dps, the M1919 has 8.76dps
4 x 1.7 + 8.76 = 15.56dps at 35 range

At maximum range (35), the Gren's K98k has ~2.26dps, the LGM42 has 8.93dps
3 x 2.26 + 8.93 = 15.71dps at 35 range

Riflemen have 5x 80hp, or a 400hp effective pool
Grens have 4x 80hp, or a 320hp effective pool

400hp/15.71dps = 25.4sec
320/15.56dps = 20.6sec

Rifles at max range w/ M1919 are 19% stronger than Grens w/ LMG42.

This doesn't take into account that for each model lost, grens lose 33% of their K98k damage, vs. 25% for Rifle's Garand. Also note that this becomes more in favor of Rifles the closer you get: The LMG42 stays around 0.2-0.3dps ahead at all ranges, but the 4x Garands fill in that DPS difference at range 25. On top of that, Rifle's have far, far better vet bonuses.

And what about vet3?

3.369 х 3 + 13.588 (mg34) = 23,695 (max range 35)

2.371 х 4 + 12.291 (m1919) = 21,755 (max range 35)

400/23,695 = 16,8 s
320/21,755 = 14.7 s

The difference in DPS - 14.29%

How much more expensive is the unit = 16.67% mp

How much more expensive m1919 = 16.67% muni

At the same time, m1919 is a weapon from the doctrine.

Given the fact that 1 vet is bad for the rifleman
Given the fact that the target size is very poor 0.97 vs 0.91.


This speaks of large losses at an early stage of the game, and the grenadiers, due to cheap and quick access to mg34, can be much more effective. So the grenadiers gain vet faster. And only on the 3rd Vete, there is a chance to win. Because vet 3 Grens - 0,7 target size, Rifle - 0,64.

Grenadiers are in a better position. Especially when at the beginning of the game they are covered by the best mg42 in the game.

And using your math, you will not hide the fact that the USF is the worst fraction in tournaments. This is the main reason why I discuss it here.

And what about vet3?

3.369 х 3 + 13.588 (mg34) = 23,695 (max range 35)

2.371 х 4 + 12.291 (m1919) = 21,755 (max range 35)

400/23,695 = 16,8 s
320/21,755 = 14.7 s

The difference in DPS - 14.29%

How much more expensive is the unit = 16.67% mp

How much more expensive m1919 = 16.67% muni

At the same time, m1919 is a weapon from the doctrine.

Given the fact that 1 vet is bad for the rifleman
Given the fact that the target size is very poor 0.97 vs 0.91.


This speaks of large losses at an early stage of the game, and the grenadiers, due to cheap and quick access to mg34, can be much more effective. So the grenadiers gain vet faster. And only on the 3rd Vete, there is a chance to win. Because vet 3 Grens - 0,7 target size, Rifle - 0,64.

Grenadiers are in a better position. Especially when at the beginning of the game they are covered by the best mg42 in the game.

And using your math, you will not hide the fact that the USF is the worst fraction in tournaments. This is the main reason why I discuss it here.

he already redid the calc the rifle are still better

again u can put it on RE and add bar, if u want it to be better remove those feature

vet1 for green is even worse, u actually use the at nades, tell me the last time u saw someone use the med kit ? let me guess u forgot rifle have 5 men vs 4 ?

"cheap and quick access to lmg" is 15 + 40 fuel cheap and early ? they cost 60 munition

and dude u are comparing only long range they are more expensive, and they easily beat green at close and mid range, u are not just happy to beat green at long range, u want to beat them easily at all range, as always u cherry pick everything, what's next "ober beat rifle, that's no good , btw ignore their cost and tier"

reverse example "why to pgreen lose to rifle at long range ? why do ober get beaten by shoock troop at close ? even with lmg 34? i mean they cost much more (btw ignore the range where they easily defeat them, it would make it seems like im a fan boy, we can't have that)"

i say rifle are in better position as they got a mortar in tier 0 to counter mgs and inf

then why was usf one of the best in the 1 vs 1 tournament ?

btw are u gonna ignore every point this time too ?

as always u are just an angry fan boy that want's to A move to victory

Grenadiers are in a better position. Especially when at the beginning of the game they are covered by the best mg42 in the game.

And using your math, you will not hide the fact that the USF is the worst fraction in tournaments. This is the main reason why I discuss it here.

Rifleman are better than Grens. If USF is the weakest faction it's certainly not because of rifleman. But imo either of the Eastern factions are both worse

the cal 50 they calculated the times, cal 50 is the fastest

the cal 50 has instant set u can a move it almost like the old maxim (which was the most op mg in the game as it worked as main line inf)

btw mg 42 Suppression

Amount
0.012
AOE suppression
0.0096
cal 50
Amount
0.054
AOE suppression
0.0432

im fanatic cause i know stats ? that's new, i guess u are gonna call me fake news next ?

say it with me... death... loop...

say it with me... death... loop...

1 is rare 2 is not AS DEVASTATING AS MAXIM


but non the less it should be fixed

1 is rare 2 is not AS DEVASTATING AS MAXIM


but non the less it should be fixed

it still makes it far less survivable than the MG-42... that plus the fact that its 20mp more expensive makes the MG-42 by far the most efficient MG in this game...

now i dont agree with riley`s sentiments to buff the riflemen... theyre completely fine... but volks need nerfs

And what about vet3?

3.369 х 3 + 13.588 (mg34) = 23,695 (max range 35)

2.371 х 4 + 12.291 (m1919) = 21,755 (max range 35)

400/23,695 = 16,8 s
320/21,755 = 14.7 s

The difference in DPS - 14.29%

How much more expensive is the unit = 16.67% mp

How much more expensive m1919 = 16.67% muni

At the same time, m1919 is a weapon from the doctrine.

You didn't account for Received Accuracy in those calculations.


(320hp / 0.7ra)/21.755dps = 457.14hp/21.755dps = 21.01 sec
(400hp / 0.64ra)/23.695 = 625hp/23.695dps = 26.37 sec

Difference = 20.32%

So it's actually above your cost-difference numbers.

Given the fact that 1 vet is bad for the rifleman

Vet 1 for Grens is medpacks, and those don't work in combat (and are, in general, awful).

Given the fact that the target size is very poor 0.97 vs 0.91.

No, I actually missed that. Thanks for pointing it out. Factoring in Gren's 0.91ra and Rifle's 0.97ra:

(400hp / 0.97ra)/15.71dps = 412.37hp/15.71dps = 26.25sec
(320hp / 0.91ra)/15.56dps = 351.65hp/15.56dps = 22.60sec

That's a difference of 13.9%, if we're keeping track.

This speaks of large losses at an early stage of the game,

That doesn't make sense, though. In combat, rifles win at every range with the M1919, and by a significant amount, and we're not even accounting for DPS loss due to model loss. On top of that, the reinforce costs for Grens are actually higher; so they're losing more AND paying more.

and the grenadiers, due to cheap and quick access to mg34,

As for unlocking the LMG42, it's behind BP1, which is 100mp/40f, compared to weapon racks at 150mp/15f. Yes, BP1 also gives you access to PGrens and T2, but weapon racks allows you to equip anything on any unit

can be much more effective.

Not according to the math we did above.

So the grenadiers gain vet faster. And only on the 3rd Vete, there is a chance to win. Because vet 3 Grens - 0,7 target size, Rifle - 0,64.

I have yet to see or find Gren vs. Riflemen vet bonuses, but at vet 3, rifles win percentage actually increases from 13.9% to 20.32%.

I'll have to run the numbers with double bars some time, but I'd guess that it just increases their win percentage at medium/close range.

Grenadiers are in a better position. Especially when at the beginning of the game they are covered by the best mg42 in the game.

And using your math, you will not hide the fact that the USF is the worst fraction in tournaments. This is the main reason why I discuss it here.

Grens are in a decent position right now. Not amazing, but not terrible. I would call them 'borderline ok'. However, buffing rifles will push them over that edge into the 'terrible section.

And yea, the math doesn't explain that - that wasn't the intention. The game has a TON of other factors to consider. As others have said, in tournament play, the game just happens to favor Sov/UKF. This is mainly partly due to map choices, but also simply due to flexibility. USF is an extremely strange "one trick" faction right now; but buffing the good units won't change that.

That said, the stats do show that up until the previous major patch, USF had the highest win rate in most game modes at the highest skill brackets.

It is unfair to straight up compare Volksgrenadiers to Conscripts or Grenadiers.

OKW has been designed with worse support weapons, so Volksgrenadiers are meant to be able to fight better independently than their counterparts. They are meant to be slightly more cost effective than other infantry.

Conscripts and especially Grenadiers however, are designed to be supplemented by support weapons.

That's how Riflemen should be, cheap and effective but instead they're expensive and lack luster. If they had something to support them early on they wouldn't be so but you've nothing. No MG, no vehicle, no sniper, no powerful CQB engieer unit, nothing.

I also like the point about vet bonuses. Rifles vet excruciating slow and when they get to Vet 1 all they get is an AT snare. It's pretty funny, its like "Oh I vetted up and all I got was something I should have had in the first place! Yippee!"

Several key USF units seem grossly overpriced actually. Besides Riflemen themselves a couple other units stand out as being way too costly:

- Definitely REs, 200 MP and 25 reinforcement cost for this unit? Seriously?

- 50. Cal, why it costs 280 MP and 7 pop while being locked behind a specific tech tree is utterly baffling to me. MG34 and MG42 both preform better, especially the MG42 yet they are only 6 pop and 260 MP.

- The Ambulance is incredibly expensive for 250 MP/10 fuel and I don't even see the point of having it available T0. It's a completely useless thing to be available as a starting unit.

I've made these comparisons before I'll make the again when you look at USF's starting roster vs OKW:

Rear Echeleons vs Strumpioneers: this is a very lopsiided comparison yet it's the reality. Strums can close in and defeat as many as 3 Rear Echeleon sqauds depending on the situation and easily can handle two at once. Strums might as well be Panzergrens.

Riflemen vs Volksgrenadiers - well we've been over this one. Whatever stat advantages Riflemen may have over Volks they're not significant enough to allow them to hold the line against OKW. Volks have the advantage here.

Mortar vs Schrek, neither unit is all that useful at the start.

Ambulance vs Kubelwagon - needs no further explaination

So you see, you need a lot of luck on your side at the start as USF because its an up hill battle.

It's not as bad vs OST because they have to build an infantry company building so they get a slow start and the USF mortar helps against garrisoned MGs.

If only they beat volks at all ranges and had a tier 0 mortar to support them

IMO the problem is ambulance and no alternative healing.

If only they beat volks at all ranges and had a tier 0 mortar to support them

As I said multiple times, the problem is that Riflemen need to close in against Volks for quite a distance to get their advantage and will thereby lose their DPS advantage by model loss. They don't win at all ranges, at long range it's RNG, especially when you consider that Volks can create their own green cover while Riflemen can't. Suggesting otherwise is borderline lying. The problem is also that early Sturmpioneers will chase your Riflemen off the map, and that the StG comes for no further fuel cost, so you need to delay more infantry and your tank for side tech to keep up.
OKW spams Volksgrenadiere while your Riflemen are expensive and you lose the early capping game while being pressured into often bad fights.

A normal OKW build is 4 Volks, a normal USF build is 3 Rifles into officer, as a fourth Rifle plus officer will often bleed you hard. You get the officer unit for "free" by teching compared to OKW, but it takes very long to build so you have less map presence during that time. And a big chunk of the MP advantage that you gain by the "free" officer is basically invested into the ambulance.

Volks are also performing exceptionally well against Conscripts, Penals (due to sandbags) and Tommies (when unbuffed). They also get stuff that Riflemen would need to side tech for (weapon upgrade, grenade) or Riflemen need to vet up first (snare). They're incredible units with next to no downside.
Tone them down a bit.

as ive said before... just make volks 260mp/26mp per reinforce then remove the sandbag and give it to the sturmpio...

As I said multiple times, the problem is that Riflemen need to close in against Volks for quite a distance to get their advantage and will thereby lose their DPS advantage by model loss. They don't win at all ranges, at long range it's RNG, especially when you consider that Volks can create their own green cover while Riflemen can't. Suggesting otherwise is borderline lying. The problem is also that early Sturmpioneers will chase your Riflemen off the map, and that the StG comes for no further fuel cost, so you need to delay more infantry and your tank for side tech to keep up.
OKW spams Volksgrenadiere while your Riflemen are expensive and you lose the early capping game while being pressured into often bad fights.

A normal OKW build is 4 Volks, a normal USF build is 3 Rifles into officer, as a fourth Rifle plus officer will often bleed you hard. You get the officer unit for "free" by teching compared to OKW, but it takes very long to build so you have less map presence during that time. And a big chunk of the MP advantage that you gain by the "free" officer is basically invested into the ambulance.

Volks are also performing exceptionally well against Conscripts, Penals (due to sandbags) and Tommies (when unbuffed). They also get stuff that Riflemen would need to side tech for (weapon upgrade, grenade) or Riflemen need to vet up first (snare). They're incredible units with next to no downside.
Tone them down a bit.

but volks are equal at long range , okw start with -15 fuel and more expensive tech

Btw IS beats both green and volks when not in cover (at least when I tested them)


Btw they are cutting okw mp so no more 4 volks

And finally , inf fight don’t happen at 35 range , it’s very rare, generally the squad moving in will need to find equal cover and u will never find it at max range

Volks have sand bag for the same reason they have flame nade, strum have too many roles ( in my post history I made a thread trying to address this, by specializing them)

but volks are equal at long range , okw start with -15 fuel and more expensive tech

Btw IS beats both green and volks when not in cover (at least when I tested them)


Btw they are cutting okw mp so no more 4 volks

And finally , inf fight don’t happen at 35 range , it’s very rare, generally the squad moving in will need to find equal cover and u will never find it at max range

Volks have sand bag for the same reason they have flame nade, strum have too many roles ( in my post history I made a thread trying to address this, by specializing them)

hello says conscripts and grenadiers...

Everyone's jumping to overly simplistic conclusions here. This matchup is much more complex than 30 MP of price difference.



We've seen from the stat comparisons that Rifleman squads outgun Volksgrenadier squads. One on one, Rifles have a clear edge.

However, this matchup isn't one on one: there's a starting unit to consider. You're not comparing 250 MP vs 280 MP, you're comparing 550 MP vs 480 MP.

OKW can belch out Volks fast, so this manpower gap only gets bigger during the early game. They can belch out four Volks in the time it takes USF to get three Riflemen out.

1300 MP (4x Volks 1x Sturmpio) vs 1040 MP (3x Rifle 1x RE)? It's clear why USF loses that early engagement if they don't have a superior position.

The score's evened by the second engagement when USF has their officer, but by then OKW's turfed you off your cutoff and built sandbags all over it.



Sander said the Balance Team is looking into ways to weaken this early OKW bull rush. If they come up with something clever (and they usually do) this matchup could well become more even.

Lock Volksgrenadier sandbags behind veterancy, that would be a good start to reduce OKW's early game strength.

Everyone's jumping to overly simplistic conclusions here. This matchup is much more complex than 30 MP of price difference.



We've seen from the stat comparisons that Rifleman squads outgun Volksgrenadier squads. One on one, Rifles have a clear edge.

However, this matchup isn't one on one: there's a starting unit to consider. You're not comparing 250 MP vs 280 MP, you're comparing 550 MP vs 480 MP.

OKW can belch out Volks fast, so this manpower gap only gets bigger during the early game. They can belch out four Volks in the time it takes USF to get three Riflemen out.

1300 MP (4x Volks 1x Sturmpio) vs 1040 MP (3x Rifle 1x RE)? It's clear why USF loses that early engagement if they don't have a superior position.

The score's evened by the second engagement when USF has their officer, but by then OKW's turfed you off your cutoff and built sandbags all over it.



Sander said the Balance Team is looking into ways to weaken this early OKW bull rush. If they come up with something clever (and they usually do) this matchup could well become more even.

If what you say is true with okw early game nerfs, then once the offcier comes out USF will stomp OKW on all ends as they will outnumber OKW. The only advantage OKW has over USF is to outnumber them with volks, without that riflemen will steamroll volks

Yep removing sbags from volks sounds nice.

I want to say to all the people that posted here before that this topics, including off topics, have been already discussed before. If OP wants a quick answer then fine start a thread but if you or anyone is going to engage so hard in a discussion and after that spit BS and wrong assumptions, please fo all us a favour and go search and READ in the first place.

Also note, this was the worst off topic fuckfest I had to bare. The game has relations of balance but broader analysis require sober arguments.

If what you say is true with okw early game nerfs, then once the offcier comes out USF will stomp OKW on all ends as they will outnumber OKW. The only advantage OKW has over USF is to outnumber them with volks, without that riflemen will steamroll volks

I doubt it'll come without midgame buffs.

but volks are equal at long range , okw start with -15 fuel and more expensive tech

Btw IS beats both green and volks when not in cover (at least when I tested them)


Btw they are cutting okw mp so no more 4 volks

And finally , inf fight don’t happen at 35 range , it’s very rare, generally the squad moving in will need to find equal cover and u will never find it at max range

Volks have sand bag for the same reason they have flame nade, strum have too many roles ( in my post history I made a thread trying to address this, by specializing them)

Yes, Volks are equal long range. That's what I said, and that's what makes it hard for Riflemen as I explained in an earlier post and quickly covered in the one you're quoting.

I also said that IS need a nerf.

Let's see what balance team will patch into the live game and how this will effect Volks performance and spammability.

And yes, engagements are not usually at exactly 35 range, but Rifle only gain a significant advantage in DPS below ~15 range. So if you need to cross 20 meters against Volks in cover (often sandbags), you're going to lose 1-2 models and a lot of health while probably killing none, which is going to lose you the fight.