Riflemen need a buff or Volks need a nerf?

Might have something to do with it having extremely weak gun compared to these other heavies and there being as many reasons to limit it to 1 as there are to limit panther to 1.

Extremely weak gun. It is weird it can penetrate everything on many occasions.
And for panther i think you are seriously obsessed with the panther.

If only they had an AT gun that could maybe turn invisible, ambushing opponents armor and never letting them scout early for it.
Hell, if that's not enough, maybe we could implement doctrinal anti tank squad with high durability of maybe 5 men and 2 shrecks.

Yeah and OKW definently has an unflankable at gun. I seriously don't get that bias about German anti tank capabilities while Allies have the TDs and far superior infantry.

For the 100th time, rifles are FINE, the easiest and most conservative way to fix volks is to remove their sandbags. The fact that they can spam them everywhere means they can almost defend while attacking (capping.) Sections really depend on cover so I think they are the only squad that should get them. Maybe increase the build time for sections so they don't spam them everywhere. Make sbags doctrinal for all other mainlines.

I find that rifles and grens should have some combat vet shifted to vet 1 like all other mainlines.

For the 100th time, rifles are FINE, the easiest and most conservative way to fix volks is to remove their sandbags. The fact that they can spam them everywhere means they can almost defend while attacking (capping.) Sections really depend on cover so I think they are the only squad that should get them. Maybe increase the build time for sections so they don't spam them everywhere. Make sbags doctrinal for all other mainlines.

I find that rifles and grens should have some combat vet shifted to vet 1 like all other mainlines.

I'm not entirely sure that just sandbags is enough to tone them down. Regardless of cover volks are extremely cost effecient, especially with STGs. Don't get me wrong, sand bags is a start, but I don't think it would be enough

Volks are extremely cost effecient

Do you have any statistics that support this claim of Volksgrenadiers being 'extremely' cost efficient?

Because they are a cost efficient unit, as they are meant to be, and perhaps they are even a bit too cost efficient, but calling them extremely cost efficient is an over exaggeration.

volks are literally green that instead of having 0.91 RA have 80 more HP for 10 more mp (and worse scaling and upgrades)

I'm not entirely sure that just sandbags is enough to tone them down. Regardless of cover volks are extremely cost effecient, especially with STGs. Don't get me wrong, sand bags is a start, but I don't think it would be enough

There is a weird balance between volks, penals, and infantry sections. You nerf one you have to nerf all of them. Usf infantry could have its stats shuffled around to allow them to compete. Everyone is going for cav rifles, paras, rangers, or assault engineers which is far more interesting than rifle spam.

volks are literally green that instead of having 0.91 RA have 80 more HP for 10 more mp (and worse scaling and upgrades)

Scaling and upgrades mid to late game renders Volks as nearly useless unless you have successfully managed to keep them all alive which can be quite a challenge. Would manage to keep them somewhat on par on scale with allied infantry units.

Volks would still be weaker late game.

Do you have any statistics that support this claim of Volksgrenadiers being 'extremely' cost efficient?

Because they are a cost efficient unit, as they are meant to be, and perhaps they are even a bit too cost efficient, but calling them extremely cost efficient is an over exaggeration.

The fact that they are able to contend with much more expensive units when slightly cheaper ones are blown absolutely out of the water compared to volks makes me believe they are extremely cost effecient. For 250mp you get the ability to deny cover, snare vehicles and build cover, add stgs to the mix and it improves their long range dps (up a ways o don't recall who tested volks vs many units at various ranges and they did very well at long range but lost out up close generally) and uncontestable up close, while being able to upgrade in enemy territory with undroppable weapons. At vet 1 they get a 10% target size reduction making them more durable than rifles, after only a single vet (rifles cost 30mp more and will not scale without additional fuel and manpower) At max vet they even self heal.
For 250mp.

The fact that they are able to contend with much more expensive units when slightly cheaper ones are blown absolutely out of the water compared to volks makes me believe they are extremely cost effecient. For 250mp you get the ability to deny cover, snare vehicles and build cover, add stgs to the mix and it improves their long range dps (up a ways o don't recall who tested volks vs many units at various ranges and they did very well at long range but lost out up close generally) and uncontestable up close, while being able to upgrade in enemy territory with undroppable weapons. At vet 1 they get a 10% target size reduction making them more durable than rifles, after only a single vet (rifles cost 30mp more and will not scale without additional fuel and manpower) At max vet they even self heal.
For 250mp.

im 100 % sure rifle can contend with pgren at long range does it make them ultra super duper coste effective ? i mean pgreen cost 40 more mp and comes later



at vet 2 rifle get uber vet volks will only dream of it

again if the problem are stg change those not volks cost or dps

I'm not entirely sure that just sandbags is enough to tone them down. Regardless of cover volks are extremely cost effecient, especially with STGs. Don't get me wrong, sand bags is a start, but I don't think it would be enough

I have a feeling it isn't enough but, maybe it is. But I don't wanna shake the balance with something too radical. Probably the next thing to look at is the vet 1 bonus. If riflemen and grens don't get a vet 1 combat bonus then other infantry should probably not get one either.

my tests seems to indicate that the volks vs gren relationship is similar to the rifle vs volk relationship... hence it would be prudent to price them between grens and rifles (260)

im 100 % sure rifle can contend with pgren at long range does it make them ultra super duper coste effective ? i mean pgreen cost 40 more mp and comes later



at vet 2 rifle get uber vet volks will only dream of it

again if the problem are stg change those not volks cost or dps

And if tree pgrens close it will be a blow out in pgrens favor, not the case with rifles on volks and CERTDAINLY not if thr volks get the stgs.

And it's not JUST the stgs. It's just a poorly designed uniy in a poorly executed faction. A faction with a long range AI specialist and a cqb specialist yet everything gets dumoed on volks because its easy. The stg wouldn't RE as much a problem if they couldn't also burn out cover. When they win at range and decimate up close and can build cover and deny it iys too bloody much.

Obers need to be more accessable and sturms I feel need better specialization paths that take the "need to do everything but also be cheap enough to match or exceed all the of opponents infantry squad" design away.

im 100 % sure rifle can contend with pgren at long range does it make them ultra super duper coste effective ? i mean pgreen cost 40 more mp and comes later

Only if you insist on comparing apples to oranges instead of other apples.
We can squint our eyes looking at PGs so much we'll look like we're impersonating chinese and PGs will still not be a mainline generalist infantry.

I have a feeling it isn't enough but, maybe it is. But I don't wanna shake the balance with something too radical. Probably the next thing to look at is the vet 1 bonus. If riflemen and grens don't get a vet 1 combat bonus then other infantry should probably not get one either.

Cons also get a vet 1 bonds if I recall, but they do start at a larger than normal target size. Granted if rather see that reduction tied to a tech than vet (2 buildings made?) and I agree that such a vet bonus just sets the ball rolling far too quickly. Funny though thadt the squad the probably needs it the most (sturms) has such a lame, shitty vet 1... Just goes to show that volks are supposed to, by design, ignore convention and snowball away. I don't even know why okw has an MG, or elite infantry when volks are supposed to fee so independent that they start exceeding the performance of more expensive squads right from the first point of vet...

The fact that they are able to contend with much more expensive units when slightly cheaper ones are blown absolutely out of the water compared to volks makes me believe they are extremely cost effecient.

Again with the over exaggerations.

They can only contest one type of more expensive Allied mainline infantry, that isn't really that much more expensive (and even then Rifles pay for their potential, and not so much for their base stats) and only under ideal circumstances. They generally lose against Infantry Sections (and lose badly against Bolstered ones) and against Penals on all ranges.

They also do not blow Conscripts out of the water. They have slightly more DPS (~11% close, up to ~28% far) while having slightly better target size (1 vs 1.09) but Cons have Oorah to help mitigate that. STG44 upgrade isn't any more powerful than the SVTs, PPSh-41s or 7th man upgrades. Volks are more cost effective than Conscripts yes, again per design, and again perhaps slightly too much, but there is nothing here that indicates they are extremely cost efficient.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of the list, as that is just a sum of cherry picks, and there are also lots of things they can't do or don't get compared to other mainlines. Again, nothing here indicates they massively overperform.

lol k

Weird how his point seems dumb when you edit it and only respond to a fraction of the sentence... Try being less biased for once

They also do not blow Conscripts out of the water. They have only slightly more DPS (~11% close, up to ~28% far) while having slightly better target size (1 vs 1.09) but Cons have Oorah to help mitigate that. STG44 upgrade isn't any more powerful than the SVTs, PPSh-41s or 7th man upgrades.

they volks seem to beat conscripts at range 30 and 20 while are a bit of a 50/50 at range 10... even with ooraah the dynamic is grossly in favor of volksgrenadiers for a 10mp increase... much in the same way as a rifle vs volk dynamic

they should be 260mp

Volks are more cost effective than Conscripts yes, again per design, and again perhaps slightly too much, but there is nothing here that indicates they are extremely cost efficient.

if volks are designed to operate independently then why does OKW get a better MG and higher quality elite infantry?

maybe if the maxim and the MG34 switched places one could argue "volks are designed to be independent"... but no all infantry the soviets have OKW has it better...

and better still... OKW gets a superior MG and a frustrating AT gun (for both the user and the opponent)

They can only contest one type of more expensive Allied mainline infantry, that isn't really that much more expensive (and even then Rifles pay for their potential, and not so much for their base stats) and only under ideal circumstances. They generally lose against Infantry Sections (and get lose badly against Bolstered ones) and against Penals on all ranges.

Based on the IS changes youve talked about it seems like that will change pretty harshly. Like making they're target size .9 outside heavy cover would change a lot against volks

Volks absolutely need some nerfs IMO and there's probably other things on okw that could use buffs. Really think they should at least lose sandbags

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Not sure what your point is. I never said Volksgrenadiers are perfectly fine as is, I'm only explaining why they are the way they are and I already said that arguably/perhaps they are slightly too cost effective. A small price increase to 260MP would fit well within my arguments for the unit.

I am only arguing against the claim that they are extremely cost effective, because I do not agree that they are.

I think Volks is not really something that should be taken into consideration.

If anything that is I can tell about OKW, early game advantage.

It is the fact they have Sturmpio to help them advance efficiently.
What exactly:

- Close in enemies, thus draining their health exponentially
- Play a role as bait which helps Volks maintain their DPS when closing in on enemies
- Decent dominance early (although they do really suck later on) but they are the main reason for Volks dominance


If Volks were the starter unit instead. I am quite certain that OKW wont have that same early advantage at all.

When Sturmpio dies early, you can be certain that OKW will have no early game advantage.
____


I think what would be a nice dynamic change is if they make Volks slightly more expensive and Sturmpios slightly more cheaper.

Switch and change the gear between them so that both be used independently. Though they should fill different designed roles from the way it currently funcitons.

Just some way to avoid Volks spam and have at least the option to choose willingly Sturmpios also.