Jackson - jast light version of the Panther :)

..

I agree. The jackson is a bit better in the anti tank department due to better moving accuracy, higher range and less cost, but the panther makes up for it with much better anti infantry (pintle mount mg42) and much better durability.

The Jackson deserves a small cost increase to 150 or 155 fuel but other than that it's fine in my book.

Comparing the two my experience is that they are about equal in performance/cost. Panthers need to be aggressive and take risks to take out jacksons, usually better but not unfallabe, its also not like they do that much vs infantry just light damage. A duel between the two is usually decided by better micro and supporting units

Cost is 185 fuel to 140, and the panther may have a marginally better reload? but its good to bring the stats in, thanks.

I do find firefly's to be better than jacksons due to tank commander and tulips, so they aren't top of the food chain even amongst allies IMO.

I agree. The jackson is a bit better in the anti tank department due to better moving accuracy, higher range and less cost, but the panther makes up for it with much better anti infantry (pintle mount mg42) and much better durability.

The Jackson deserves a small cost increase to 150 or 155 fuel but other than that it's fine in my book.

150 - Jackson vs 185 Panther = cost difference 23,33%

But Armor difference 130/60 vs 260/90 = 100/50%
Health difference 640/960 = 50%


This is not a balance

150 - Jackson vs 185 Panther = cost difference 23,33%

But Armor difference 130/60 vs 260/90 = 100/50%
Health difference 640/960 = 50%


This is not a balance

What about you compare their range also? Or their moving accuracy? Or Jackson HVAP ability?

Btw you have a funny substantiation. "50% more armor means the tank is 50% more effective than the other tank". Welp, a Panther will still get penned by a vet 2 SU85 or Jackson HVAP shot in 100% of the cases.

It's their speed combined with moving accuracy. It's fine that they hit hard - USF needs a strong TD to deal with Axis heavy/ultra-heavy tanks. The problem is, they can do that while also being the fastest medium in the game, having significantly higher moving accuracy than any other tank AND having TD-range.

Basically, if well micro'd, they'll basically never be hit by anything.

What about you compare their range also? Or their moving accuracy? Or Jackson HVAP ability?

Btw you have a funny substantiation. "50% more armor means the tank is 50% more effective than the other tank". Welp, a Panther will still get penned by a vet 2 SU85 or Jackson HVAP shot in 100% of the cases.

HVAP - it is not needed against the panther, it is needed against heavy tanks, like the Tiger, or the Jagdtiger. And this is not a bonus, it is a must.

And this is a necessity (HVAP) is not free.
And is available only to a veteran.

It turns out that if there is no Jackson veteran, and the munition is over, then you have absolutely nothing against the king tiger and JagdTiger. Or you should have at least 2 Jackson, and you should take a risk, going to the rear of the KT and Jagdtiger. And if support in the form of simple infantry with Faust is nearby, then you lose. Again.

But you present HVAP as something very powerful and free bonus. Just find out what kind of armor and health Jackson’s opposition has.

Tiger - Armor:300/140 Health: 1040
KingTiger - Armor: 375/150 Health: 1280
JagdTiger - Armor: 525/110 Health: 1280

It's their speed combined with moving accuracy. It's fine that they hit hard - USF needs a strong TD to deal with Axis heavy/ultra-heavy tanks. The problem is, they can do that while also being the fastest medium in the game, having significantly higher moving accuracy than any other tank AND having TD-range.

Basically, if well micro'd, they'll basically never be hit by anything.

and not to be forgotten- if you DO hit it, it can heal itself

I specifically made this picture, brought the numbers and percentages, so that it would be clear to every dissatisfied axis player that Jackson is not subject to any discussion. All for objectivity. M36 is the only measure against heavy axis tanks.

HVAP - it is not needed against the panther, it is needed against heavy tanks, like the Tiger, or the Jagdtiger. And this is not a bonus, it is a must.

And this is a necessity (HVAP) is not free.
And is available only to a veteran.

It turns out that if there is no Jackson veteran, and the munition is over, then you have absolutely nothing against the king tiger and JagdTiger. Or you should have at least 2 Jackson, and you should take a risk, going to the rear of the KT and Jagdtiger. And if support in the form of simple infantry with Faust is nearby, then you lose. Again.

But you present HVAP as something very powerful and free bonus. Just find out what kind of armor and health Jackson’s opposition has.

Tiger - Armor:300/140 Health: 1040
KingTiger - Armor: 375/150 Health: 1280
JagdTiger - Armor: 525/110 Health: 1280

Ignore the JT's front armor stat. It's just there to make it seem like an indestructable bunker. The way to beat JTs has always been flanking (look at the rear armor stat), immobilization, and off-map. Remember that it's incredibly slow, even with the upgrade, even slower to turn, and has no turret. It's also basically useless vs. infantry.

It's almost the same thing for KTs, except that it has some decent AI power and a turret; but it loses that insane frontal armor, range, and AT power for it.

Really, you don't need M36s for any of those. Each of those can be beaten easily by a few well controlled Easy8s, with the additional bonus of having good AI power. Also, the KT/JT are both 720mp/280f units, limited to one at a time, and (for the JT) locked to a doctrine - they're going to be pretty strong.

I specifically made this picture, brought the numbers and percentages, so that it would be clear to every dissatisfied axis player that Jackson is not subject to any discussion. All for objectivity. M36 is the only measure against heavy axis tanks.

Like I said, the problem isn't the damage, it's the combination of mobility, moving accuracy far above every other tank as well as range. With those things combined it basically makes any and all axis armor irrelevant when well controlled.

and not to be forgotten- if you DO hit it, it can heal itself

Yea, and you can jump out to force the axis tanks to re-target when low on HP.

Ignore the JT's front armor stat. It's just there to make it seem like an indestructable bunker. The way to beat JTs has always been flanking (look at the rear armor stat), immobilization, and off-map. Remember that it's incredibly slow, even with the upgrade, even slower to turn, and has no turret. It's also basically useless vs. infantry.

It's almost the same thing for KTs, except that it has some decent AI power and a turret; but it loses that insane frontal armor, range, and AT power for it.

Really, you don't need M36s for any of those. Each of those can be beaten easily by a few well controlled Easy8s, with the additional bonus of having good AI power. Also, the KT/JT are both 720mp/280f units, limited to one at a time, and (for the JT) locked to a doctrine - they're going to be pretty strong.



Like I said, the problem isn't the damage, it's the combination of mobility, moving accuracy far above every other tank as well as range. With those things combined it basically makes any and all axis armor irrelevant when well controlled.



Yea, and you can jump out to force the axis tanks to re-target when low on HP.

Ignore the moving accuracy. It's just there to make it seem like an Panther with half health and -100 % armor. Remember that it's have low armor. It can destroy even Puma.

Like I said, the problem isn't the damage, it's the combination of mobility, moving accuracy far above every other tank as well as range. With those things combined it basically makes any and all axis armor irrelevant when well controlled.



Yea, and you can jump out to force the axis tanks to re-target when low on HP.

Like I said, the moving accuracy and range it's necessary against Panther, because Panther have 100% more armor +10% vet, and 50% more health. HVAP necessary against King/Jagd Tigers. Or do you want the USF to always take risks by going to the rear of tanks that have more armor/health? When all volksgrenadiers have a faust. As well as a disguised raketenwerfer 43, which is always in ambush. You want an easy game man.

Basically every armor stage balance issue goes back to the Panther tbh. You can't beat it with medium tanks because of the armor, hp, and range advantage. You're forced to buy and often spam TDs to counter it, especially in team games, since artillery saturation means the only other counter, spamming 3-4 AT guns and dumping munitions into them, is no longer viable. It's no real surprise at all, then, that USF goes for the M36 every time instead, and it's a no brainer that they get spammed in team games where panther spam itself is a real possibility, as 2-3 Panthers on the field is a magnitude more trouble to deal with than 2-3 M36. The question being asked shouldn't be so much if the M36 is too good or needs a nerf, but why allied factions all need such powerful AT units to deal with a stock tank, and whether this is good design at all.

If the Panther gets toned down, perhaps it's HP pool or frontal armor, maybe we can do something to the M36 to make it less efficient versus lighter tanks, but presently the same problems Axis players have using Panzer IVs versus the M36 are a hundred times worse when matching Allied mediums against the Panther. Presently, I can say if the M36 price is nerfed it's just going to make allied mediums even more rare, since now even more fuel is required to build the M36 that basically has to be built anyway to face off against the Panther/Heavy tank that might come out. Only exception is 1v1s where it's already clear fuel dominance has been achieved and/or the enemy fuel depleted.

Can everyone stop comparing M36 to Panther? It's terrible as saying IS-2 should be a Soviet's Elefant.

The counterpart of M36(Speed) is Jadgpanzer(camo), Firefly(alpha dmg), SU85(Self-spot).
While Panther should be compared to T34-85, E8, Comet (late medium tank).

Can everyone stop comparing M36 to Panther?

While Panther should be compared to T34-85, E8, Comet (late medium tank).

That's a really bad comparison too. The Panther isn't really a medium tank (bad AI damage), it's a special kind of tank destroyer. There literally is no comparison for the Panther as it's a unique type of vehicle.

I hate Jacksons and Elephants because they are hard to flank and encourage camping

Can everyone stop comparing M36 to Panther? It's terrible as saying IS-2 should be a Soviet's Elefant.

The counterpart of M36(Speed) is Jadgpanzer(camo), Firefly(alpha dmg), SU85(Self-spot).
While Panther should be compared to T34-85, E8, Comet (late medium tank).

Well then what is the Jackson’s counterpart in Ost tech tree?


Because if they don’t have one that’s a pretty big problem

Well then what is the Jackson’s counterpart in Ost tech tree?


Because if they don’t have one that’s a pretty big problem

Same as Kubel counterpart in USF.
Or Sniper counterpart for OKW and USF.
See where this is heading?
Factions are not mirrored.
They can achieve the same results, but they use different tools to do so.

And no, there is absolutely no problem with that.

Well then what is the Jackson’s counterpart in Ost tech tree?


Because if they don’t have one that’s a pretty big problem

Welcome to asymmetric balance.

USF may have Jackson, but they don't get stock rocket artillery (Calliope,Panzerwefer), stock late medium tank (E8,Panther), or stock early TD (M10,Stug) as OST.

And USF have zero counterpart to Elefant as well, and nobody say that as "big problem".

Accept the fact.

I specifically made this picture, brought the numbers and percentages, so that it would be clear to every dissatisfied axis player that Jackson is not subject to any discussion. All for objectivity. M36 is the only measure against heavy axis tanks.

but why ? u have also Paks and mines and u can equip all inf with zooks and offmap if u want too.
maybe u just have to develop a combiend arms tactic.
And not the standart infs spam into Jacksons ...where 0 micro is required.

in 1v1 and 2v2 u just NEVER see a JT or an Elefant.

U see only panthers in axis lategame because it is the only stock Tank that is not useless when it hits the field.