British balance - Tommy too strong

Because Vanguard has the Crocodile and Typhoons. It would be way better with call in commandos instead of the dumb glider.

That's not how the commander system works. If you have everything you want in one commander, you've got no reason to choose the others.

the tommies are good because they must be, the UKF's manpower problems make it so you must be able to fight with a force smaller than your enemy (hence their power). This makes them sorta like a penal squad that cant chase units down. The tommies lack of snares make them bait for flametracks and cant do much without a bren carrier vs MG42's the OKW can counter the UKF playstlye as soon as a flame grenade becomes available...

First of all, circular argument fallacy there, "tommies must be stronk because they 'must be', they are the only infantry because they are stronk and they are stronk because they are the only infantry". Well, logic doesnt work like that, sadly.

What happens with OST then? Are grens even comparable to tommies? we all know the answer.
Added: Team weapons are available, early LVs, UKF mediums arrive faster than others. etc

Tommies are like penals, true. They cant chase, true, but also Tommies are excellent wipers. That freaking OP for a mainline infantry.

Tommies lack of snare is because UKF was designed around it, even when everyone agreed it was a bad design. They dont need anyones pity now that RE have snares.

MG42 are literally ment to stop rushing infantry, and surprise surprise! Tommies are the worst rushers of all mainlines. Maybe there are other options... (did you know that vickers do actually beat mg42s?)

While strong, the tommies can be beaten like everything else.

Bullshit, thats not true.

The only thing OP about tommies is them walking up to you and dropping a grenade at their own feet, killing 3 of your models and them not losing even a quarter of their health. bRUH

Can we please remove suicide vest tommies and give the mills bomb a minimum throw distance?

Honestly, I feel like Vanilla Tommies are alright balance wise but the Bolster upgrade makes them far too durable and allows them to scale better than Axis main-line infantry even with weapon upgrades. If they required the Tier 3 to be teched before being able to purchase the bolster upgrade I feel like that would make 5-man section spam a bit weaker. Players should have to purchase weapon racks to deal with Axis infantry upgrades, not purchasing one upgrade and being able to scale into the late-game automatically.

I always thought Bolster was there to bring them UP TO the levels of other mainlines, because if tommies were as powerful as other mainlines to start then UKF’d be OP because they start with 1 squad of tommies.

But now they are as good as other mainlines without bolster and way better with bolster.

I can agree that USF isn’t op and is in the best place they’ve ever been in terms of fun and balance

The only thing OP about tommies is them walking up to you and dropping a grenade at their own feet, killing 3 of your models and them not losing even a quarter of their health. bRUH

Can we please remove suicide vest tommies and give the mills bomb a minimum throw distance?

They already had the minimum range for their grenade fixed in one of the New Commanders follow-up patches.

They already had the minimum range for their grenade fixed in one of the New Commanders follow-up patches.

Oh sorry I haven’t played any games recently where brits teched grenades.

Bullshit, thats not true.

Indeed, out of all the time I played have axis in COH2 i have never once beaten tommies, they kill everything I own in half a millisecond. My german infantry should be able to roflstomp everything with ease, if it inst that way it is not balance. Its not like i can throw a grenade or anything or smoke them out. Nope IMPOSSIBLE. God forbid a squad can actually wipe another squad. Maybe you should retreat before your squad has 1 model left. No thats not the answer! If you should be complaining about any infantry squad it should be the penals because they kill every axis mainline inf with ease and wipe enemy squads rather easily. Penals are like tommies but without the cover penalty and they can delete HMG's with the satchels.

Stop smoking dude... what you say its not even funny

Penals are OP, thats a fact. But dont bring them here, thats offtopic

Mr.Distrofio. The tommies can be countered. Its not like they are some omnipotent god squad. Just get a MG so they cant move out of cover then chuck a nade. Problem solved. Liegs work to. Since tommies are not that great short range get smoke and rush them with Pgens or in the case of OKW the stg volks + sturms. bang problem solved. They are not hard to fight. just spam flame nades like volks always do and you win the engagement because the tommies cant camp behind the cover if its on fire.

Mr.Distrofio. The tommies can be countered. Its not like they are some omnipotent god squad.

We both agree perfectly here, since i never used exaggerations neither

just get a MG so they cant move out of cover then chuck a nade. Problem solved. Liegs work to. Since tommies are not that great short range get smoke and rush them with Pgens or in the case of OKW the stg volks + sturms. bang problem solved. They are not hard to fight. just spam flame nades like volks always do and you win the engagement because the tommies cant camp behind the cover if its on fire.

It is actually a little more complicated than that, because you'll see, the game is full of cover spots where IS can position themselves safely.
Nades are effective but it so happens that the squad rushing in to a well positioned IS suffers as much losses to require a immediate retreat. Lavanades dont always get the whole cover area, so a little nudge of the IS within cover is just enough. Rifle nades can be dodged like any other skillshot. If you dont believe i invite you to see some medium skilled, not even high skilled games footages. Its not like they are invincible but in the grand scheme, IS are able to dominate the map control for less requirements than other axis mainlines infantries.

Consider that the game is won by small fights victories, like a proper skirmish, therefore if a IS is able to kill 2 man of a MG42 shooting straig at them, that is a victory for IS. If 2 units are forced to fight a single well placed IS then there is clearly shown the potential of the squad, one unit to suppress and the other to dish the damage. Even when OST clearly is prepared for that setup, you dont always have a MG and a gren squad for every enemy IS squad.
This consideration gets worse when IS get bolster and eventualy bren LMGs...

If we were to consider the case when a upgunned volk or pgren squad flanked an IS squad effectively then of course the result will favour the former, simply because one player applied better combat maneuvers than the other, resulting in a obvious conclusion.

But apart from that case, IS are able to displace, if not wipe on the unfortunate case of a fordward positioned blob, all other infantries with the proper support of vickers MGs too.

As a fact i know IS weak spots, from 222s to the eventually lucky mortar shot, but leigs are not to be considered because their performance is sub par compared all the other variants, one just doesnt fight IS with leigs...

It is well known that UKF has fast teching, because they dont need an engineer unit constructing new buildings or restrictive FU values, therefore all the T1 units are as readily as T1-2 for OST or T1 or T2 for OKW. There is a slight advantage towards UKF in this manner, because you can spam IS to tech withouth serious consequenses.

Even when UC is used in some games, it doesnt bring as much as IS matching or outnumbering the enemy squads.

Finally and addressing the topic, since IS are able to force so much pressure in early game stages, all the rest of UKF units must be sub performing to their potential value, because IS (that are meant to defend) can push the frontlines as effectively as other so considered OP mainline infantries.

I hope i could explain myself better this way, if not i just cant share my PoV not because i didnt try, but because we dont share the same cognitive foundation of the game balance as itself.

Sincerely yours, Mr distro

How do bolstered tommies stack up against obsersoldaten with and without their respective LMG upgrades?

How do bolstered tommies stack up against obsersoldaten with and without their respective LMG upgrades?

Good question, some might say that obers have an upper hand, but IMO it all depends on various factors. Since we are talking of lategame, Vets come into play. Are obers upgunned? Are IS? Is there cover available?

Double lmg34 obers are just terminators, even bolstered IS have a hard time against them, and gets worse with vet. But they are a rare sight and come so lately that the impact in the game is not as relevant at that time, again IMO.

On the other side, vanilla obers vs bolstered IS, both Vet 0, its a win for IS (IIRC)

Now, the middle of that, when obers are out of cover they loose models faster than IS but they at least deal full damage, this end resulting in obers not being cost effective but they are useful anyways.

I would like someone else to try some test if you really are curious about Obers vs tommies performance. But it should end in some advantage for Obers in the long run.

Tommies are too strong for 1 reason, they made them super cheap to reinforce in like the second patch cuz brits sucked release day.

280 manpower squad with 4 men, should cost 280/4/2 per model or 35 manpower, but they cost 28 manpower Show Spoiler

USF riflemen 280/5/2 = 28 exactly how much they cost to reinforce
Grens 240/4/2 = 30 manpower exactly how much they cost to reinforce
Conscripts 240/6/2 = 20 manpower ect.

They broke the formula because british infantry bleed very heavily to snipers and they used to have a 10% chance of spontaneously combusting upon contact with explosives. Perhaps they could have rectified this but relic has not has significant infantry balance overhauls in quite some time that would have likely ironed out this price/performance discrepency.

That said brit's don't have any other nondoctrinal infantry and some of their other units and strats are a bit lacking (Mortar pit, cromwell). The faction needs some work as all the others did when they were newest.

If we were to consider the case when a upgunned volk or pgren squad flanked an IS squad effectively then of course the result will favour the former, simply because one player applied better combat maneuvers than the other, resulting in a obvious conclusion.

But apart from that case, IS are able to displace, if not wipe on the unfortunate case of a fordward positioned blob, all other infantries with the proper support of vickers MGs too.

This is all I need from that essay you posted. You see, unlike the UKF the OKW and Wher have more base units available to them. If you use these units tommies will still be a threat but not a horrendous one. Smoke is the brits greatest fear. All of the british main units require the enemy to be far away with the vickers and the tommies so smoke renders that playstlye irrelevant. Then you can push out the mg with grenades and crack open their line. It all comes down to who plays better. If you ram your head into UKF while they are sitting back behind sandbags of course you lose. All you need to do is close the distance, that being with smoke cover or just a flank. This is just another case of players not adjusting tactics and getting their asses handed to them as a result. yet in this case this player felt the need to make another one of the infamous "It beat me its op" posts.

So the common thing here is that everyone who hates the way tommies are now hates the five man squad bolster upgrade and blames that for tommies being op. Meanwhile no one who is in favor of tommies can make an argument as to why tommies need to have the five men to have effective offensive power, but still want it in order to have better staying power in the late game.

My suggestion. Nerf the Tommy’s rate of fire by 10% and reduce damage from 16 to 14 per shot but make them, and all UKF infantry units 5 man squads from the start. This results in a slight buff to Infantry Sections in the early game by giving them 5 men’s worth of hit points, but taking a slight reduction in outgoing firepower and it gives them a major nerf in the late game where they cannot get the bolstered squad to upgrade both damage and durability. The end result should be that Tommies are still very good infantry that can benefit from upgrades, but are more consistent throughout the game and have less of massive power spike when the bolstered infantry sections come out.

Basically, Tommies start out as a five man squad but with the firepower of the current four man squads.

Edit: probably should also add a slight fuel cost to British teching in order to account for the fuel that would normally be spent on the bolster upgrade.

So the common thing here is that everyone who hates the way tommies are now hates the five man squad bolster upgrade and blames that for tommies being op. Meanwhile no one who is in favor of tommies can make an argument as to why tommies need to have the five men to have effective offensive power, but still want it in order to have better staying power in the late game.

My suggestion. Nerf the Tommy’s rate of fire by 10% and reduce damage from 16 to 14 per shot but make them, and all UKF infantry units 5 man squads from the start. This results in a slight buff to Infantry Sections in the early game by giving them 5 men’s worth of hit points, but taking a slight reduction in outgoing firepower and it gives them a major nerf in the late game where they cannot get the bolstered squad to upgrade both damage and durability. The end result should be that Tommies are still very good infantry that can benefit from upgrades, but are more consistent throughout the game and have less of massive power spike when the bolstered infantry sections come out.

Basically, Tommies start out as a five man squad but with the firepower of the current four man squads.

Edit: probably should also add a slight fuel cost to British teching in order to account for the fuel that would normally be spent on the bolster upgrade.

Here's a suggestion: Make all Tommies into tank hunter Sections, you won't get any more complaints.....

On a slightly more serious note, after a day of playing only OKW, it felt almost as bad going against Tommies as it feels like going against OKW as USF.

This is all I need from that essay you posted. You see, unlike the UKF the OKW and Wher have more base units available to them. If you use these units tommies will still be a threat but not a horrendous one. Smoke is the brits greatest fear. All of the british main units require the enemy to be far away with the vickers and the tommies so smoke renders that playstlye irrelevant. Then you can push out the mg with grenades and crack open their line. It all comes down to who plays better. If you ram your head into UKF while they are sitting back behind sandbags of course you lose. All you need to do is close the distance, that being with smoke cover or just a flank. This is just another case of players not adjusting tactics and getting their asses handed to them as a result. yet in this case this player felt the need to make another one of the infamous "It beat me its op" posts.

Wait, are you really saying that a single, free of cost, non damaging, tactical smoke is able to defeat the whole UKF faction? For real? why are we not abusing this?

Also if we separate each argument you described:
A1: All other factions beside UKF have more than 1 (stock) mainline inf...
A2: If the other player plays better UKF will loose (?
A3: This is another case of player not being able to outplay IS

What kind of logic is that? What are you even trying to prove?
If UKF has only 1 infantry, it does not mean it has to be able to win in early,mid and late game scenarios, otherwise there is a clear difference that shows them as OP, since no other infantry does the same, some perform better early some perform better late, pick one. There is not a single opinion of mine there, only the words you used to describe why tommies are *not OP...

What kind of logic is that? What are you even trying to prove?

He's saying if you engage a unit that specialises in long range heavy cover fights at long range against heavy cover, they're probably going to do pretty well.

Therefore, investing in units that don't fight at long range in heavy cover will help.

How do bolstered tommies stack up against obsersoldaten with and without their respective LMG upgrades?

Vet 0 LMG Obersolaten are roughly matched with Vet 0 double Bren Tommies in a Range 30 full cover fight.

Vet 2 LMG Obersoldaten are matched with Vet 3 double Bren Tommies.

Vet 0 StG Obersoldaten can close the full distance on Vet 3 double Bren Tommies and win handily.

Vet 0 StG Obersoldaten can close the full distance on Vet 3 double Bren Tommies and win handily.

They wouldn't have to tho due to cover ignoring of StGs and their potent long range DPS compared to other assault rifles.