So are they really nerfing the Churchill Tank?

Yeah they only have access to a self spotting 85 range high damage guaranteed pen tank destroyer. Damnit :/

You are obviously missing otu the overnerfs the Elefant got. It has 70 range now and less damage than it used to. All while keeping its weaknesses. That being not being able to actually maneuver out of any situation and no AI. All while the ISU can do both.

You are obviously missing otu the overnerfs the Elefant got. It has 70 range now and less damage than it used to. All while keeping its weaknesses. That being not able to actually maneuver out of any situation and no AI. All while the ISU can do both.

He means recrewing an abandoned Jaeger Armor elefant and hulling it down.

Yeah they only have access to a self spotting 85 range high damage guaranteed pen tank destroyer. Damnit :/

JP4 is great too. It doesnt have the most amazing pen but it's enough for the Churchill's mediocre armor

What?
Jp4 pen is still worse than churchill mediocre armor..
Even panther doesnt 100% pen at max range...

Jp4 - 15 pop
Churchill - 16pop
Panther - 18pop

Hence the problem with churchill.

Instead of nerf chuchill tank somewhat, i always advocate panther armor buff and moving accuracy buff, on vet. It makes scaling better and serves purpose not just against churchills but late game.

A expensive tank like panther, should do better against all allies med tanks. The 90/99 armor is a joke.

What?
Jp4 pen is still worse than churchill mediocre armor..
Even panther doesnt 100% pen at max range...

Jp4 - 15 pop
Churchill - 16pop
Panther - 18pop

Hence the problem with churchill.

Instead of nerf chuchill tank somewhat, i always advocate panther armor buff and moving accuracy buff, on vet. It makes scaling better and serves purpose not just against churchills but late game.

A expensive tank like panther, should do better against all allies med tanks. The 90/99 armor is a joke.

For axis the panther is their solution for dealing with heavy armour next to their doctrinal heavy td,s. They can also solo all non doc medium tanks.

The stug and jagdpz4 are there for medium armour just like the su76 is for soviets. They are not supposed to be a solid and cheap answer to late game heavy tanks. The churchill is still a heavy tank.

You are obviously missing otu the overnerfs the Elefant got. It has 70 range now and less damage than it used to. All while keeping its weaknesses. That being not being able to actually maneuver out of any situation and no AI. All while the ISU can do both.

Overnerfs?
Yeah because 2-shooting all mediums was not broken at all. Now you need 2 shots + faust. If you think its overnerfed you're doing something wrong in teamgames mate. A well supported Elefant is still crazy strong and only very hard to stop.

A vet 2 Elefant can escape any flanking attack with ease on narrow maps

What?
Jp4 pen is still worse than churchill mediocre armor..
Even panther doesnt 100% pen at max range...

Oh no! The chance for a max range pen is NOT 100%! Obviously trash and underperforming then

Yeah I don´t get why people repeat this over and over again. The Churchill has terrible armor for a heavy tank. 240 frontal armor is the lowest amongst all heavy tanks.

Did you forget the entire continent it has for health?

You forgot about shitty speed and shittier gun.

All fine, you got 15 trillion health points.

There is really hardly any need for a nerf

Sure it has probably the highest survival-ability in the game, but on the other hand a DPS on par with Kubel and, if one includes the Anvil unlock, quite high cost

Also, options for other generalist tanks are the worst medium in the game and the worst premium medium in the game

There is really hardly any need for a nerf

Sure it has probably the highest survival-ability in the game, but on the other hand a DPS on par with Kubel and, if one includes the Anvil unlock, quite high cost

Also, options for other generalist tanks are the worst medium in the game and the worst premium medium in the game

i smell bias, a lot

i smell bias, a lot

He's not wrong you know.. Atleast about the Crom and Comet.

But the OPness of Tommies more than makes up for it (see UKF win stats )

There is really hardly any need for a nerf

Sure it has probably the highest survival-ability in the game, but on the other hand a DPS on par with Kubel and, if one includes the Anvil unlock, quite high cost

Also, options for other generalist tanks are the worst medium in the game and the worst premium medium in the game

You better be trolling.

IMO nade anf smoke locked behind vet would be enough

Some stats for direct comparison (I used OKW P4 as the front armor values are similar and it is the most costly medium tank and guns are comparable):

name OKW p4 Churchill difference
Manpower 380 490 -110
Fuel 140 160 -20
Pop 14 16 -2
Armor 234 240 -6
Hitpoints 640 1400 -760
Rear armor 90 180 -90
Target size 22 26 -4
Speed 6 4 2
accuracy - far 0,025 0,025 0
accuracy - mid 0,0375 0,0375 0
accuracy - near 0,05 0,05 0
Damage 160 160 0
Penetration - far 110 105 5
Penetration - mid 115 120 -5
Penetration - near 125 135 -10
Range 40 40 0
Sight 35 35 0
Reload avg 5,5 6,5625 -1,0625


So, what do you get for 100 MP and 20 FU more?
Mostly health (which is huge) and rear armor, so even medium tanks will bounce regularly from the rear armor. Jagdpanzer IV and StuGIII will have 71% frontal/94% rear pen chance, Panther has 92%/100% at their respective max range.
You pay for with a worse gun (due to higher reload), and a waaaaay slower tank. Also higher target size that translates to ~10% higher chance to be hit.

Other factors are:
- utility: Churchill: lobs a grenade and can create a smoke screen that nobody ever uses / P4: Blitzkrieg at vet 1
- side-tech cost: Churchill needs side-tech, that also brings other benefits for UKF, so you can't add the cost completely to the Churchill.



I think Churchill is mostly fine and not as broken as many think. In my opinion, it maybe could cost 1-2 more population.
One weird thing I find is that the health is not dividable by 160 nor 80, which means that a Churchill can limp away with 120 health or even only 40 if snared, which can be very frustrating for the axis player.

EDIT: I just saw that the forum screws over the format of the stats. Quoting gives a nicer, more readable format.

All fine, you got 15 trillion health points.

Only if you use rifles to counter it.

Try AT gun.

Only if you use rifles to counter it.

Try AT gun.

Churchills are best countered by TDs, not AT guns.
Churchills AI is alright, it's AT is very lacking

Churchills are best countered by TDs, not AT guns.
Churchills AI is alright, it's AT is very lacking

Churchills, like literally any other armored unit in the whole series, are best countered by specialized TD vehicles, anti tank guns and infantry/mines screening for AT guns.

If you want magical one type only unit solution, you have ele/jt.

If it doesn't push and retreats instead for repairs, you've countered it.

Churchills, like literally any other armored unit in the whole series, are best countered by specialized TD vehicles, anti tank guns and infantry/mines screening for AT guns.

If you want magical one type only unit solution, you have ele/jt.

If it doesn't push and retreats instead for repairs, you've countered it.

That's why I wrote >best< countered. Maybe you should try to read a post correctly before giving your ever so smart answers.
Of course the Brumbär will take damage if it attacks an AT gun, but this does not mean that the AT gun is the best counter for the Brumbär. You should chose a TD. Similar thing for the Churchill.

He's not wrong you know.. Atleast about the Crom and Comet.

But the OPness of Tommies more than makes up for it (see UKF win stats )

cromwell is in no way bad, it has more pen and speed than p4 and ai is comparable, with the cromwell having more consistent damage and the p4 getting more one shoot potential for more luck needed (in short p 4 has bigger near aoe but much worse far damage, it's only 8 vs 32 of the cormwell)

the comet is still good and a perfect mini tiger, it could use a vet 1 reload buff but that's it, it has great armor, pen,45 range and speed

cromwell is in no way bad, it has more pen and speed than p4 and ai is comparable, with the cromwell having more consistent damage and the p4 getting more one shoot potential for more luck needed (in short p 4 has bigger near aoe but much worse far damage, it's only 8 vs 32 of the cormwell)

the comet is still good and a perfect mini tiger, it could use a vet 1 reload buff but that's it, it has great armor, pen,45 range and speed

While I agree that the Cromwell is actually not that bad (from what I felt ingame it lacks a bit in the AI departement compared to the P4s, but I don't have much hard data on that, you seem to have more), the pen on the Cromwell and P4s is mostly the same. Especially if you keep in mind that the P4s and Axis tanks in general usually have more armor. So P4 has about 75% pen chance (slightly depending on range of course) against cromwell, while it's approximately 66% the other way around. Rest of the stats is absolutely comparable.