SU-76 Rework

Could you lease elaborateon your second point? Visually, they do pretty much the same, so I never thought about it if there were any drastic stat differences, since in game they behaved similar.
What are the differences between the two abilities?

Su-76 barrage gets a 25% damage (iirc) increase is vet 2 and almost double the range buff of the zis at vet 3.

If you are asking about the TWP:
Pak: +900% penetration for 10 seconds. Hits disable weapons and movement for 5 seconds
Stug G: +100% penetration, will lock enemy vehicles turret temporarily and disable its main gun.

The thing is that the SU67 is not a very viable option at the moment. It's not horrible, but there is little reason to build it due to other options. And since the other options are not deemed OP, SU67 could be overprized/underperforming.
The stuG was also not a horrible unit stat wise. The problem was that Allied TDs countered it heavily, so Ostheer usually relied on its PaK as it is more cost efficient.
The Su76 is by no means the most glaring problem of the game, but if there is interest to discuss it, why not. So we need to fiddle with small adjustments

Su-76 is a very viable option against T3 unit but since T3 in many cases is not a viable option for Ostheer there is little reason to built SU-76.

The unit if performing fine for cost and is effective against it T3 units.

Su-76 barrage gets a 25% damage (iirc) increase is vet 2 and almost double the range buff of the zis at vet 3.

If you are asking about the TWP:
Pak: +900% penetration for 10 seconds. Hits disable weapons and movement for 5 seconds
Stug G: +100% penetration, will lock enemy vehicles turret temporarily and disable its main gun.


Su-76 is a very viable option against T3 unit but since T3 in many cases is not a viable option for Ostheer there is little reason to built SU-76.

The unit if performing fine for cost and is effective against it T3 units.

Well, then I think the barrages are still comparable since the functionality is not changed (barrage vs conditionally better barrage, while TWPs are timed snare vs negate offensive capabilities).
But these are very minor points, let's refocus.

However, the OST P4 was always a good tank in the last versions, Ostwind now has been patched back into the meta and it seems that also StuG has finally found a place, at least I've seen people building them every now and then quite effectively. I still see basically no one go SU76s when I play Axis. The problem is that it is only good vs OST in general and complete shite against OKW, since the OKW P4 leans heavily towards the premium tanks armorwise, so the SU76 ist unreliable. And against OST you're probably better off using a ZiS, since a freaking Ostwind can inflict sufficient damage (25% combined hit and pen chance at range 40) to your SU76 if caught even slightly offguard.
I think the AT capability of the SU76 is just not worth getting it due to better options. Buffing accuracy or pen on the other hand might screw Ostheer. If we want SU76 back in the meta (which it is not currently, as no one builds it), we should give back some utility. 20 mun barrage, as I said multiple times, is my suggestion.

If it’s supposed to be a premium ATG, what if we made it so it could be killed by infantry from the back? It is open backed, and then it could get a buff to its damage (120 -> 160) or a cost reduction

Its a risky idea, logical at least in the sense of appeareance.
If you lower SU-76 rear armor to paper values, it would be possible to have it being damaged by small arms fire.

To buff its damage as tradeoff sounds good

Edit: i said in my opinion, looks like a premium ATG.
It shares same ability, tank hunting role, and with doctrinal abilities can get camo aswell.
But i could be very wrong.

I always thought it would be neat if the su76 was a mobile zis. Would be quite cool. Immune to small arms from the front but not the rear.. Be fun if nothing else

I think the AT capability of the SU76 is just not worth getting it due to better options. Buffing accuracy or pen on the other hand might screw Ostheer. If we want SU76 back in the meta (which it is not currently, as no one builds it), we should give back some utility. 20 mun barrage, as I said multiple times, is my suggestion.

I don't think that decreased cost of barrage make it popular. Problem as always in overall effectivness of unit. If you make barrage more user friendly (more accurate or more AOE) it could screw german infantry due to wipes and i don't think that this will be good in terms of balance and gameplay. SU-76 became a prey of soviet design - it trying to become good in any role, but fail, due to bad stats and more better units (Zis). It also don't have any chances in lategame - it means that it place in early-midgame, but as i previous said, these timeframes of games too short and SU-76 can't fit to it.
I recently saw Skippy game, where his team try to did heavy SU-76 spam - against 1 p4, 2-3 su-76 works, but when p4 2 or 3 or panther (or any another heavy) came to field, they light is off. While barrage quite effective vs blobs, SU-76 leaded to very later T4. And as result game was lost, because map pressure was lost and loses of su-76 leaded to huge fuel drain.

If it’s supposed to be a premium ATG, what if we made it so it could be killed by infantry from the back? It is open backed, and then it could get a buff to its damage (120 -> 160) or a cost reduction

It's squishy enough, if we make it more fragile, how you supposed to play and what compensated this? In game only rocket artillery very fragile, but it's compensated very strong abilities to wipe enemy infantry and team weapons.

I think about several possible ways:

1. Change of role could return it to game - make from SU-76 light howitzer for indirect arty support (what it did in real life). While T-70 is fast, moblie and aggresive AI, SU-76 became more defense-style, like mortar do.
2. Make separate upgrades for it. Like:

"Tank hunter":
Increased pen (+20) and damage (+20).
"Tank Hunter Ambush Tactic" stealth (with 1-st shot 10% accuracy and 10% pen bonus, rotation speed decreased by 60%).
Timed 20s (like HEAT OKW shells) ability to "Tracking" enemy armor (like m-42 munition ability). Barrage have increased cost to 45 and fire only 2 shells.

"Artillery support":
Give it more powerfull HE shells for "Supporting Fire"-increased cost of barrage to 45 and work like JT HE barrage.
"Piercing Shot" (like ISU-152 have with 50% penetration bonus).
"Smoke barrage".
Regular barrage become free, but share cooldown with "Supporting Fire". Penetration medium decreased by 10, far penetration by 20 to show SU-76 how infantry support unit.

Su-76 could equip only 1 upgrade.

Separate upgrades could help player to choose what he want - more AT specialized unit or more AI or still it like it is. Maybe add new ability for all variants like "Overdrive" that increased rotation speed by also decrease accuracy to slightly help to survive due low armor and health with bad pathing..

I always thought it would be neat if the su76 was a mobile zis. Would be quite cool. Immune to small arms from the front but not the rear.. Be fun if nothing else

In coh3 it would be cool if they could treat open top assault guns differently. Like so you can actually kill the crew operating it if you flank it. Probably would be hard to balance, but i think more fun

Not a fan of the penetration nerf since when a Panther appears the su76 becomes redundant. A vet 3 penetration buff would be welcome.

Before the penetration nerf, it was common to see a horde of them. It was kind of comical, especially when they barraged. They were way too cost efficient.

In coh3 it would be cool if they could treat open top assault guns differently. Like so you can actually kill the crew operating it if you flank it. Probably would be hard to balance, but i think more fun

It would be perfect for the de-crew mechanic if it could be restricted to the rear armour. It would be so cool. Increased vulnerabilities to air attacks too! But engine restrictions....

I don't think that decreased cost of barrage make it popular. Problem as always in overall effectivness of unit. If you make barrage more user friendly (more accurate or more AOE) it could screw german infantry due to wipes and i don't think that this will be good in terms of balance and gameplay. SU-76 became a prey of soviet design - it trying to become good in any role, but fail, due to bad stats and more better units (Zis). It also don't have any chances in lategame - it means that it place in early-midgame, but as i previous said, these timeframes of games too short and SU-76 can't fit to it.
I recently saw Skippy game, where his team try to did heavy SU-76 spam - against 1 p4, 2-3 su-76 works, but when p4 2 or 3 or panther (or any another heavy) came to field, they light is off. While barrage quite effective vs blobs, SU-76 leaded to very later T4. And as result game was lost, because map pressure was lost and loses of su-76 leaded to huge fuel drain.


It's squishy enough, if we make it more fragile, how you supposed to play and what compensated this? In game only rocket artillery very fragile, but it's compensated very strong abilities to wipe enemy infantry and team weapons [...]

While rework would be an option, I think it's too late for COH2 to basically get a complete new non doc unit. Su76 will stay a light TD for the life cycle of the game.
The SU76 was quite OP as it performed well in AT and AI due to the barrage. Looking at thr stats, AT is still fine vs Ostheer, while its insufficient vs OKW. Can't do nuch about that unfortunately. But since the Su76 does not scale well into the late game anymore, ZiS is the better option. 75 FU for something scaling that badly isjust not worth it. So I assume it's best to make its AI and utility worth using it again.

I thought the puma went from 80 to 120?

T70 does 80.
Puma does 120. Upgrades to 160 at vet 3

In coh3 it would be cool if they could treat open top assault guns differently. Like so you can actually kill the crew operating it if you flank it. Probably would be hard to balance, but i think more fun

I'd be more fun if they could make it so that a swarm of conscripts doing hoorah at a Tiger could
flank it, climb it, and throw grenades inside, automatically decrewing it

oooooh it would be so much more fun! Let's do that plz!

Normal to the spider is chaos for the fly.

T70 does 80.
Puma does 120. Upgrades to 160 at vet 3

T-70 does 40 dmg, always did.

You confused nibbas thinking of stuart here.