Mediums to panther/tank destroyer interactions

Oh yeah don't get me wrong, Super Heavy TDs are completely broken in teamgames.

+1

I do think if there wouldn't be the Super Heavy TDs and Panther spam would be toned down a little bit in teamgames to not absolutely dominate mediums in a combination of armor+health and speed (and Panzer Tactican), than Jackson could instantly be nerfed to SU-85 level.

Edit: Would be good if the heavy generalist would be toned down a little bit versus AT-Guns, that would be another key aspect to have less dependence on allied TDs. I would love to see more medium tank action even in teamgames.

How many hit points does a 13 CP generalist heavy need to be worthwhile?

On 1v1, what we have now. On 2v2, what we have now but cheaper. On 3v3+ KT levels of HP pool.

Heavies punishes builds relying too much on medium and AI vehicles with little to no support AT. A single AT gun can stop a medium or 2 if you have another tank. A single AT gun won't stop a heavy from going forward, killing it and the pulling back.

The nature of the game mode is always gonna favour tank destroyers and artillery from 2v2 and onward and there's nothing you can do because each player has 100popcap to work with on maps which generally have 3 VPs.

Would adding 80 deflection damage to heavy TD (panther, su 85, ff, jackson) while nerfing it's rate of fire work (about half or 1/3) ? all while reducing the health of heavy tank but buffing their frontal armor (so they still work very well on heavy) ?

Imagine firefly with half the firerate.

Imagine firefly with half the firerate.

from 8 to 12 second if we go by half or 10.3 if we go by 1/3

and with the buff to armor and nerf to hp to heavy tank, flanking is even more rewarding, while TD are just as effective thanks to the guaranteed 80 damage

from 8 to 12 second if we go by half or 10.3 if we go by 1/3

and with the buff to armor and nerf to hp to heavy tank, flanking is even more rewarding, while TD are just as effective thanks to the guaranteed 80 damage

And 100% hit chance regardless of circumstances for it to be anything more then a field decoration?

Do I need to remind you it was utter trash at 10 seconds?

And 100% hit chance regardless of circumstances for it to be anything more then a field decoration?

Do I need to remind you it was utter trash at 10 seconds?

the unit changed since then, and it would have 80 deflection damage, so half a normal shot

the unit changed since then, and it would have 80 deflection damage, so half a normal shot

So you want to change a unit without even knowing how much damage it does.... ok.

So you want to change a unit without even knowing how much damage it does.... ok.

i said normal shoot not fire fly shoot, i know it does 200 damage

Currently, getting a medium or saving for something else is a bit like The prisioner’s dilemma.

You are both offfered 2 choices. You can either get a medium, or get a tank destroyer.

If you both choose medium, you are on even ground.
If 1 chooses a medium and one chooses a tank destroyer, the medium player will probably loose
If you both choose a tank destroyer, you are on mostly even ground

1) If you choose medium, you will either be on even ground or likely to loose
2) If you choose tank destroyer, you will either be likely to win or on even ground.

Option 2 is much better because there is no chance you’ll be likely to lose.


And if you lose, he will be able to get another tank just as you get yours, and 2 tanks are very likely to win against 1.

He can even get a medium as his second tank to kill you infantry, and even if you go tank destroyer his tank destroyer + medium should win.

Just build AT guns and TD exclusively. That will win you the game 100%
Teams with 9x+ AT guns and 6-7x StuIIIGs cannot be beaten, ever!

On 1v1, what we have now. On 2v2, what we have now but cheaper. On 3v3+ KT levels of HP pool.

Heavies punishes builds relying too much on medium and AI vehicles with little to no support AT. A single AT gun can stop a medium or 2 if you have another tank. A single AT gun won't stop a heavy from going forward, killing it and the pulling back.

The nature of the game mode is always gonna favour tank destroyers and artillery from 2v2 and onward and there's nothing you can do because each player has 100popcap to work with on maps which generally have 3 VPs.

Could remove the popcap entirely, so that there isn't any popcap.
I've been thinking about making popcap for armor only. And infantry not have any popcap. Thoughts?

Could remove the popcap entirely, so that there isn't any popcap.
I've been thinking about making popcap for armor only. And infantry not have any popcap. Thoughts?

I wanted to make a mod like that but got discouraged at the UI stage.

My idea was to have FOUR separate pop caps. Before you laugh it off, bear with me. They would be called Infantry, Support (weapon teams, some vehicles), Armour (vehicles and tanks) and Elite (elite infantry, tanks and any other "special" or rare unit). Each would have its own color coding and symbol and each would have up to 10 "popcap squares" that would fill up. Some units could take up more than 1 type of popcap.

As a reference, an MG would be 3 Support popcap, engineers would be 1 inf / 1 support, a basic infantry squad would be 2 - 2.5 infantry popcap, whereas elite infantry like Shocks and Obers would take up 3-4 Inf and 3 Elite popcap etc.

The idea is to organically promote combined arms and eliminate spam even in team games. Gone would be howitzer spam, AT gun walls, Panther spam etc (these are all to frequent in 4v4s). But it would also eliminate some 1v1 cheap tactics such as pure infantry spam or MG spam.

It would furthermore present an additional design knob that would allow some units to shine. Through clever use of popcap you could unnerf some units that were nerfed to the ground over the years. For example the Sturmtiger could take up 5 tank, 8 support, and 5 elite popcap, meaning you could field no more than 1 Ober squad alongside it, and you'd have practically NO support weapons. In this environment suddenly it no longer makes sense to overnerf the Sturmtiger, as fielding it means you have demonstrably gutted your army in a few other key aspects that means you can counterplay against it. Jagdtiger could be restored to its former overpowered glory if it took up 7 Armour and 9 Support popcap, because that popcap would mean that the OKW player has no support weapons of any kind and can only have, say, 1 Schreck fusiliers (in this example let's say Schrecking up Fusiliers takes up 1 support popcap). Suddenly the Jagd player has a weakness that can be exploited.

For example, there is a thread about the Pack howitzer up right now. Now let's say an Ambo is 3 support popcap and Pack howitzer is 4 support popcap. You would never be able to get 2 pack howies AND an ambulance. Getting 2 pack howies would practically leave you without other support weapons OR even other units that take up support popcap (maybe 105 Shermans take up 3 tank and 2 support popcap each? etc. etc.) This means that there would be counterplay to twin pack howies -to exploit the weakness in the army composition that the US player opend himself up to.

Pershing has speed and the best cannon.
Somehow I can't imagine cheaper tiger with even better cannon that suddenly has permanent blitz at the cost of whooping 80 health.

But you forgot the biggest cost difference: Faction.
One comes with a full offense faction and the other with a all around, pseudo defensive one.

Otherwise why dont we play C&C and capture each others war factory, to be able to build mammoth tanks and stealth tanks?

I wanted to make a mod like that but got discouraged at the UI stage.

My idea was to have FOUR separate pop caps. Before you laugh it off, bear with me. They would be called Infantry, Support (weapon teams, some vehicles), Armour (vehicles and tanks) and Elite (elite infantry, tanks and any other "special" or rare unit). Each would have its own color coding and symbol and each would have up to 10 "popcap squares" that would fill up. Some units could take up more than 1 type of popcap.

As a reference, an MG would be 3 Support popcap, engineers would be 1 inf / 1 support, a basic infantry squad would be 2 - 2.5 infantry popcap, whereas elite infantry like Shocks and Obers would take up 3-4 Inf and 3 Elite popcap etc.

The idea is to organically promote combined arms and eliminate spam even in team games. Gone would be howitzer spam, AT gun walls, Panther spam etc (these are all to frequent in 4v4s). But it would also eliminate some 1v1 cheap tactics such as pure infantry spam or MG spam.

It would furthermore present an additional design knob that would allow some units to shine. Through clever use of popcap you could unnerf some units that were nerfed to the ground over the years. For example the Sturmtiger could take up 5 tank, 8 support, and 5 elite popcap, meaning you could field no more than 1 Ober squad alongside it, and you'd have practically NO support weapons. In this environment suddenly it no longer makes sense to overnerf the Sturmtiger, as fielding it means you have demonstrably gutted your army in a few other key aspects that means you can counterplay against it. Jagdtiger could be restored to its former overpowered glory if it took up 7 Armour and 9 Support popcap, because that popcap would mean that the OKW player has no support weapons of any kind and can only have, say, 1 Schreck fusiliers (in this example let's say Schrecking up Fusiliers takes up 1 support popcap). Suddenly the Jagd player has a weakness that can be exploited.

For example, there is a thread about the Pack howitzer up right now. Now let's say an Ambo is 3 support popcap and Pack howitzer is 4 support popcap. You would never be able to get 2 pack howies AND an ambulance. Getting 2 pack howies would practically leave you without other support weapons OR even other units that take up support popcap (maybe 105 Shermans take up 3 tank and 2 support popcap each? etc. etc.) This means that there would be counterplay to twin pack howies -to exploit the weakness in the army composition that the US player opend himself up to.

Steel Division 2 has exactly that
Not laughing at you. On the contrary, it makes a lot of sense.
I remember FlakPanzer rushes in COH1.

For a heavy generalist?

270 armour, 960 effective hit points, price reduced to 540 MP 200 FU, accompanying nerf to the fire rate of tank destroyers.

+1. I’d go even lower on the fuel to 180 even. I also agree that the Pershing is the best example of how a heavy tank can fit in with other units without nullifying mediums. Pershing wipe potential is too high though.

The counter argument that this design style wouldn’t work in large team games is fair, but it begs the question of how much do you want to balance around large team games? 4v4 games are a crazy mess of spammy chaos. Fun for some, but with a very different sense of balance. 4 players worth of AT gun walls and tank destroyers is going to erase any single piece of armor; should heavies be designed around that though? It can certainly be done, but then those units become unrealistic to acquire or deal with in 1v1 and 2v2.

I’m of the opinion that heavies should just be more like generalist panthers in terms of cost, timing, and durability; and as such should fit better into a combined arms force. With less of a gulf between heavies and mediums, you get to see, use and counter them more often in 1v1, and the match revolves less around them in bigger games.

+1

I do think if there wouldn't be the Super Heavy TDs and Panther spam would be toned down a little bit in teamgames to not absolutely dominate mediums in a combination of armor+health and speed (and Panzer Tactican), than Jackson could instantly be nerfed to SU-85 level.

Edit: Would be good if the heavy generalist would be toned down a little bit versus AT-Guns, that would be another key aspect to have less dependence on allied TDs. I would love to see more medium tank action even in teamgames.

- Remove super heavies and Panthers.
- Remove StuG, AT, and Tank Destroyers.
- Make all mediums have same stats and cost the same.

Game fixed!

- Remove super heavies and Panthers.
- Remove StuG, AT, and Tank Destroyers.
- Make all mediums have same stats and cost the same.

Game fixed!

Yeah, that would be working actually XD


I do think it just needs a bigger time gap between Mediums on one side and Heavies + T4 TDs on the other side to justify building the Mediums. Especially in those team games. Just a quick thought: You could lock Firefly behind Hammer/Anvil upgrade for example and invent an "end tech" in T4 buildings for all factions to set T4 TDs and alike further apart from Mediums.


Another solution would be a slightly higher population for Heavies, Super Heavies & T4 TD's, so that there is a further reason to field meds later on with support of Heavies, Super Heavies & T4 TD's.

Taking Ostheer/USF as an example:
Atm PanzerIV has 12 to Jackson 16
Atm Sherman has 12 to Panther 18

As long as you get 1,5 Shermans for a Panther (3 Shermans vs 2 Panthers) or 1,33 PanzerIVs for a Jackson (4 PanzerIVs vs 3 Jacksons), there isn't much of a reason to field the Mediums in lategame.


Edit: And when we are already at it -> Howitzer artillery emplacements could use a slightly higher population too, to prevent turning teamgames into arti spamfest (+Priest and Sexton of course) AND all bunkers with MG upgrade need a population of 2.

I completely disagree with higher population for heavies. I'd argue that perhaps they need to be less generalist and have a lower population at a more specialized role than being various degrees of generalist and a huge population. Heavies (imo) should be a PART of your combined arms army, not necessarily the Centerpoint of it.
Imagine if the tiger lost some pop cap and some AOE but gained 5 or more range and become a sort of super panther instead of a large panzer. If the is-2×dropped some pop and some ROF meaning its cannon does a great job at all targets but doesn't have the DPS to hold the line by itself and needs super SU85S or cheap t34s to support it.