Ostheer Mobile Defense Puma rework

Since the puma has been locked behind battle phase 2 the doctrine pretty much lost it's main selling point. I understand that the doctrine having an emergency call-in was imbalanced, but I'm sure we can agree on that paying the full 90 fuel price of bp 2 to access it goes into the opposite extreme (just look at how rarely the doctrine is used).

I propose reworking it into a command puma (slapping 'command' on basicly anything seems to work wonders). The vehicle would be a call-in at 5 or 6 CP (like before), BUT, since it's a command vehicle, it would cost extra fuel, like 80 or 90 (instead of 70). In return it gains access to two new abilities that may make it an useful asset even in late game: recon mode (same as on T70, disables main gun but increases sight) and the OKW artillery barrage that comes with the panzer commander upgrade. (I just quickly picked these two abilities from the tip of my head, it may be anything else, up for discussion). Also, since it's a command vehicle, only one may be present at a time, so no puma spam.

The goal is to put the ostheer puma in a position somewhere between the previous and the current implementation.

Honestly I would probably just remove the Battlephase 2 requirement and let Ostheer have a Puma within Tier 2, maybe increase it's cost a bit to compensate I feel like 80 would be fine. I think the old call-in Ostheer Puma was that cost. Right now it takes OKW about 130 fuel to obtain a Puma, with these changes the Ostheer Puma would require about 140-150 fuel which I think would be reasonable. If the doctrine becomes too powerful finally tying the Command Tank call-in to Tier 3 I think would be a good nerf just to prevent people from Puma spamming into Command Tank call-in. I feel Ostheer is the faction that could really use the Puma as I feel they struggle harder against light vehicles than OKW does. Usually OKW can at least get a Panzer II to tank damage for the Rak's whereas the Ostheer light vehicles aren't able to efficiently defend the Pak unless you build multiple of them which delays Tier 3.

Honestly I would probably just remove the Battlephase 2 requirement and let Ostheer have a Puma within Tier 2, maybe increase it's cost a bit to compensate I feel like 80 would be fine. I think the old call-in Ostheer Puma was that cost. Right now it takes OKW about 130 fuel to obtain a Puma, with these changes the Ostheer Puma would require about 140-150 fuel which I think would be reasonable. If the doctrine becomes too powerful finally tying the Command Tank call-in to Tier 3 I think would be a good nerf just to prevent people from Puma spamming into Command Tank call-in. I feel Ostheer is the faction that could really use the Puma as I feel they struggle harder against light vehicles than OKW does. Usually OKW can at least get a Panzer II to tank damage for the Rak's whereas the Ostheer light vehicles aren't able to efficiently defend the Pak unless you build multiple of them which delays Tier 3.

Well said, combining a techless AI and AT vehicle was what made old Mobile Defense broken. IMO:

- Make Puma buildable from T2 at 5 CP. Possible limit of 1 on the battlefield.
- Allow the CP4 to be called in after constructing either T3 or T4. Slight cost adjustment.
- Optional: Turn Reserve Osttruppen into AT-rifle Osttruppen squad at 2 CP for 300 MP.

Puma would have to be build like now, so it doesn't arrive instantly which was a problem with old Mobile Defense. It's behind T2, to not make T2 skip strats too viable.

Well said, combining a techless AI and AT vehicle was what made old Mobile Defense broken. IMO:

What broke Mobile Defence was providing a T2 hard light vehicle counter to Ostheer.

Ostheer's got 30 FU light vehicles. The ability to kill T-70s, AECs and Stuarts enabled Ostheer to spam T2 with impunity.

The solution is to do what Royal Artillery did: return it to being a CP5 call-in but limit it to one.

That allows it to come in soon enough to be useful, but allows you to overwhelm it if the opponent tries to rely on it for AT.

What broke Mobile Defence was providing a T2 hard light vehicle counter to Ostheer.

Ostheer's got 30 FU light vehicles. The ability to kill T-70s, AECs and Stuarts enabled Ostheer to spam T2 with impunity.

The solution is to do what Royal Artillery did: return it to being a CP5 call-in but limit it to one.

That allows it to come in soon enough to be useful, but allows you to overwhelm it if the opponent tries to rely on it for AT.

How do you limit it to 1 without adding Command to its name? Show Spoiler

I do agree with the limit to 1, I've added it to my post. I don't think it would do on itself however, I don't remember many top players making multiple Puma's in GCS2, for example. Stalling into a CP4 was quite popular however, so it could do with a change.

How do you limit it to 1 without adding Command to its name? Show Spoiler

I do agree with the limit to 1, I've added it to my post. I don't think it would do on itself however, I don't remember many top players making multiple Puma's in GCS2, for example. Stalling into a CP4 was quite popular however, so it could do with a change.

The key difference limiting to one makes is you can counter it by getting two AECs/Stuarts/T-70s and brute force it. It's exactly the same principle as the Valentine nerf.

I'm not sure it needs limiting if it's tied to tech, especially not T2 now that it has become somewhat optional because of the ogren changes. Each puma limits teching and if it has a build time and building requirement it can be less reactionary. I think as a first step that would work best. If it needs more we take that step then

why people like this word? - the "command"

put this word on any unit, does it become unique?

No need rework

I have an idea that goes into the opposite. How about removing the puma from Tech2 and make it only requirement battle phase 2 and moving it into Tech0? Instant of using it together with 251 or 222 you could instatt go for puma to support Tech3 or Tech4 rushes.

I have an idea that goes into the opposite. How about removing the puma from Tech2 and make it only requirement battle phase 2 and moving it into Tech0? Instant of using it together with 251 or 222 you could instatt go for puma to support Tech3 or Tech4 rushes.

Sry, but here is too much fanboys who is like to scream for "muh T70" and "USF weak early game" so even pshrek pgren are problem for them and OP support for T3 rush. What do you think will happen, when you will add puma to the same building, even after BP2 research?
(anyway, idea is bad)

I am very thankful that somebody opened this thread, just because wi wanted to do that myself.

The problem is not just about puma, but about the whole doctrine, which gives only 2 really useful things in my opinion: ability to get neutral territories quicker(which is meh, because it doesn't buff decap rate) and panzer tactician, which is always useful.
Somebody loves command PIV, but don't really understand what people find in it: yes, it is call-in, but AT performance is nearly zero, and AI is not that good. It's passive aura is good, but paying 12 popcap and 125 fuel just for it is unnesessary.
This commander requires general rework. Puma comes too late, vet1 ability was too good long time ago, but now is nearly useless. Reserve osttruppen on 3CP is meh. Times ago people have called this commander as "ostheer comeback doctrine", but now even 450mp package from osttruppen commander looks more like comeback option.

What broke Mobile Defence was providing a T2 hard light vehicle counter to Ostheer.

I think what made it broken was the ability to call in a techless AI medium tank on top of having the Puma, more than the Puma itself, as this combo gave an endless supply of call-in AT and AI without ever needing to go past T1. I think in hindsight the wrong vehicle was nerfed and what should've gotten put into tech was the Command P4 rather than the Puma.

Although of course making the Puma a call-in or only require T2 would risk seeing MobDef nearly every game again because an easily available Puma simply fixes Ostheer's most glaring weakness.

I think what made it broken was the ability to call in a techless AI medium tank on top of having the Puma, more than the Puma itself, as this combo gave an endless supply of call-in AT and AI without ever needing to go past T1. I think in hindsight the wrong vehicle was nerfed and what should've gotten put into tech was the Command P4 rather than the Puma.

Although of course making the Puma a call-in or only require T2 would risk seeing MobDef nearly every game again because an easily available Puma simply fixes Ostheer's most glaring weakness.

Commander PIV is annoyingly weak for it's price if you ignore a call-in fact. Maybe we can finally have a normal cannon on it, not that stubby one?
And I am only one who think that if player want to get a puma and do not want to get tiger, elefant, lefh or assault grenadiers, it is completely his choice and since puma is quiet easy to counter that's more like benefit of puma-players opponent?

I think what made it broken was the ability to call in a techless AI medium tank on top of having the Puma, more than the Puma itself, as this combo gave an endless supply of call-in AT and AI without ever needing to go past T1. I think in hindsight the wrong vehicle was nerfed and what should've gotten put into tech was the Command P4 rather than the Puma.

Although of course making the Puma a call-in or only require T2 would risk seeing MobDef nearly every game again because an easily available Puma simply fixes Ostheer's most glaring weakness.

You'd think, but Old Mobidef got a ton of testing as a consequence of GCS 2 and the games were often decided before CP9.

You'd go T1 into T2 as normal, then build about four Ostheer lights. Often you'd get double Flamer 251s. When the opponent eventually cobbled together the fuel for a T-70 or AEC, you'd call in the Puma and kill it. If they try to use multiple lights, call in multiple Pumas.

The Command Tank is just a nail in the coffin.

The big problem with Old Mobile Defence as a commander was its mere presence in the Command Bar means Ostheer can suddenly throw a Puma at you, and that completely changes how you play. I'm actually fairly content for the Puma to stay where it is now that Ostheer's been rebalanced around its absence.

I think the best solution is to make the Puma work in its current T2 + BP2 timing. At that timing, it competes with the StuG, so it's got to be competitive with the StuG.

There are a lot of creative ways to do that.

• Give it OKW HEAT rounds, allowing it to fight like a StuG for a munitions cost.
  or
  
• Give it built-in spotting scopes, allowing it to scout for other vehicles from Vet 0.
  or
  
• Give it the ability to capture points, playing into the theme of the doctrine.
  or
  
• Make it a fair bit cheaper, making it a very cost efficient TD given its timing.

Commander PIV is annoyingly weak for it's price if you ignore a call-in fact. Maybe we can finally have a normal cannon on it, not that stubby one?

Its anti-infantry performance is actually easily on par or even better than a normal Ostheer Panzer IV's. It compensates slightly weaker AOE with significantly less scatter and a faster reload. It's actually surprisingly good considering its anti-infantry is mostly a secondary role (the damage reduction aura being its primary role).

panzer_4_75mm_short_mp
AOE: 5.12
Reload: 3.75s
Scatter: 5.5 scatter angle, 0.25 distance offset, 1 distance ratio, 5.4 distance max

panzer_4_75mm_mp
AOE: 6.32
Reload: 5.75s
Scatter: 7.5 scatter angle, 0.25 distance offset, 1 distance ratio, 6.4 distance max

The normal P4 needs the top mounted MG to achieve roughly similar TTK, but that is under ideal circumstances (at medium distance and in neutral cover, giving the MGs maximum DPS).

Its anti-infantry performance is actually easily on par or even better than a normal Ostheer Panzer IV's. It compensates slightly weaker AOE with significantly less scatter and a faster reload. It's actually surprisingly good considering its anti-infantry is mostly a secondary role (the damage reduction aura being its primary role).




The normal P4 needs the top mounted MG to achieve roughly similar TTK, but that is under ideal circumstances (at medium distance and in neutral cover, giving the MGs maximum DPS).

Comparing AOE with out taking account damage is simply misleading. C. PzIV does half the damage PzIV does.

The kill radius for C. PzIV is 0.75 va PzIV 1.13.

C. PzIV is more expensive the normal PzIV with extremely low AT.
Even its AI is not superior since PzIV can get an extra LMG and now where near ostwind's performance.

It up as fighting unit and the only thing that save it is the no tech cost.

The combination of no tech cost call-in vehicles both AI and AT in the commander on the other hand is problematic.

Imo all aura units should be redesigned providing a low passive bonus and more meaningful active one and the aura should scale with veterancy.

Alrighty boys, time for another one of my commander reworks that we all love (sarcasm).

0CP - Osttruppen: You can count on them
2CP - Breakthrough equipment: Allows faster pioneer repairs. Fits with the mobile defense theme.
5CP - Call in Puma: 350mp and 120 fuel. No longer needs BP2. Only one can be on the field at the same time. Designed under Jaeger command squad principles. Gets smoke, observation mode like the T70, aimed shot and can call in artillery like panzer commander from okw.
8CP - LeFH
9CP - JU87 AT stafe

Comparing AOE with out taking account damage is simply misleading. C. PzIV does half the damage PzIV does.

Which is exactly why rather than the raw AOE stats I presented Cruzz' quantified AOE rating, which includes the difference in damage.

Which is exactly why rather than the raw AOE stats I presented Cruzz' quantified AOE rating, which includes the difference in damage.

Yet the "AOE rating" of the PzIV is around 23% better while the kill radius is x 151% better making the PzIV AI performance superior with high alpha damage.

In addition the C. PzIV vets allot slower than normal PzIV.

In sort C.Panzer IV is more expensive, does not get a pintle mg, it vet slow, its AI is not that impressive, s and it AT is simply UP even compared to KV-8 45mm gun.

The only it has going for it the aura and no tech. I suspect that if it was not available in this commander that was meta for a while people would not even mention the unit. In many cases having 2 PzIV is better than having 1 PzIV and 1 C. PzIV even if one is facing soft targets, while being cheaper.

It could maybe stand to have shared veterancy, given it relies on damage to vet and its anti-infantry performance is pretty meh.

Its kickass damage reduction aura is what makes it worth giving up a proper P4 for.