Do Allies retreating units get smaller target size?

But we are about chasing retreating units. Pgren as bad as gren in chasing no? In relation to penals and rifles, usf and sov is trading too good against wehr imo.

As for hmg 1.25, i think it should go back to 1 for wehr and sov. And 1.25 for the other 3 factions. Reasons because the penalty of no forward bases. Is mortar also 1.25?

Felt very cheap to get wiped by penals much faster than grens can do the same. I saw a new build, penals into AA ht these days.

Anyone also think 222 is underperforming? In my games, if you got shot by ATG, it is probably dead, the 2nd shot always comes in before you can retreat. I don't know if its the slow acceleration or TS or pathing.

Hence i think except in 1v1, very little use for 222. Maybe in 4v4, slap a spotting scope and use it for recon, hopefully level up shooting planes and have longer sight

A very small contribution could be that Allied squads have higher unit count and therefore higher maximum damage potential, even if the average DPS is the same.
A Penal model with 40 HP retreating past a gren squad will never get wiped in one salvo, since the grens can only do 4*8 = 32 damage in one salvo if every shot hits.
A Gren model running past a rilfeman squad could get wiped, since rilfeman can do 5*8 = 40 damage max, if they are super lucky to hit every shot.

I think it comes down to how many models are shotting. The more, the more likely it hits.

Depending also how good the units are. Grens in particular are not greatest at taking down retreating squads.

Allied base units such as UKF Tommies and USF Riflemen are better designed for taking down squads, especially on the move.

Tommies although have less accuracy on the move like most units, they are the fastest shooting bolt action user even without cover. Their rate of fire with bolts actions is the fastest of all available bolt action users in game. Which is a huge advantage. They are more likely to kill then grens when shooting down a retreating squad.

Riflemen although does 8 damage, you can almost be certain it would hit more often because it trades damage for more accuracy. It is quite reliable especially on the move. Riflemen are the best in my opinion in order to take down retreating squads.

Penals also are great, similar to Riflemen.

anyone also find wehr mortar and mg42 pack up slower than allies?

That's because they do, at least the 50cal, Maxim, USF mortar, now the brit mortar all do those things faster in some aspect. THe vickers has the same pack time and I think the soviet mortars have the same pack time as well.

Yea i thought so too.
Do you think we should relook these base stats?
Imo losing units as wehr 2v2 player is very serious hurt, and you are more likely to lose them.

Yea i thought so too.
Do you think we should relook these base stats?
Imo losing units as wehr 2v2 player is very serious hurt, and you are more likely to lose them.

Aforementioned MGs also have lower firing arcs and arrive much, much later.
Oh, they also both have death loop, while 42 doesn't.
Losing units as ANY faction hurts hard, its not exclusively ost "feature", if you play vs good player, loss of a unit can be loss of a game, if you play vs scrub, its irrelevant how many units you'll lose and as which faction.

And fun fact:
There is one stock infantry that rips and shreds easily retreating units, because it got bonus accuracy against them - that infantry doesn't belong to allies.

i think its because of the usual better fire on the move of allied INF

And fun fact:
There is one stock infantry that rips and shreds easily retreating units, because it got bonus accuracy against them - that infantry doesn't belong to allies.

Wait what? Which one?

Wait what? Which one?

Obers.
They have 25% extra accuracy against retreating units.

Obers.
They have 25% extra accuracy against retreating units.

Ah, I didn't know that. Why was that implemented?

Ah, I didn't know that. Why was that implemented?

Because OKW.
It also used to be 50%.

OKW used to be extremely unique and equally silly faction.
Crapload of stuff OKW had "because its OKW".

Wait guys, there's so much wrong in this thread lol.

but g43 is doc, while penals and rifles are better at killing retreating squads

You need to know the difference between chasing, cutting the retreat path and staying still. Just because you are chasing, it doesn't mean you are getting the most juice out of your units.

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Penals and rifles are slightly better than other units on the move, but it doesn't mean it is optimal to stay on the move.

But we are about chasing retreating units. Pgren as bad as gren in chasing no? In relation to penals and rifles, usf and sov is trading too good against wehr imo.

As for hmg 1.25, i think it should go back to 1 for wehr and sov. And 1.25 for the other 3 factions. Reasons because the penalty of no forward bases. Is mortar also 1.25?

Felt very cheap to get wiped by penals much faster than grens can do the same. I saw a new build, penals into AA ht these days.

-PG is better than grens at chasing. See first part of the post.
-You don't reduce size on HMG crews because they are cheaper to reinforce and this has always lead to HMG spam.
-Mortars should all be 1.25 and the only one at 1.0 should be the ISG.
-Penals are more expensive and you give up map control early to pump them up. You are not supposed to fight 1v1 Penal vs Gren.
-AAHT is what people build to counter what most OH are doing which is Ostwind rush.

A very small contribution could be that Allied squads have higher unit count and therefore higher maximum damage potential, even if the average DPS is the same.
A Penal model with 40 HP retreating past a gren squad will never get wiped in one salvo, since the grens can only do 4*8 = 32 damage in one salvo if every shot hits.
A Gren model running past a rilfeman squad could get wiped, since rilfeman can do 5*8 = 40 damage max, if they are super lucky to hit every shot.

Revisit your stats.
Grens do 16dmg per shot. A full salvo can deal 64dmg.

I think it comes down to how many models are shotting. The more, the more likely it hits.

Depending also how good the units are. Grens in particular are not greatest at taking down retreating squads.

Allied base units such as UKF Tommies and USF Riflemen are better designed for taking down squads, especially on the move.

Tommies although have less accuracy on the move like most units, they are the fastest shooting bolt action user even without cover. Their rate of fire with bolts actions is the fastest of all available bolt action users in game. Which is a huge advantage. They are more likely to kill then grens when shooting down a retreating squad.

Riflemen although does 8 damage, you can almost be certain it would hit more often because it trades damage for more accuracy. It is quite reliable especially on the move. Riflemen are the best in my opinion in order to take down retreating squads.

Penals also are great, similar to Riflemen.

UKF Tommies are not good at chasing. You can easily check how much DPS loss you have by going to https://coh2db.com/stats/ and double clicking the same weapon profile to see how the weapon performs on the move.

Tommies are more expensive and they perform to their cost. If they are not in cover they lose DPS (it's not a boost, it's a penalty).

You guys seriously need a fast course on probability 101.
What would you guys choose:

-A flip coin (1x 50%) and guessing head.
-Throwing a 4 side dice twice and getting a 4 at least once. (2x 25%).

1) Infantry wipes weapon teams on retreat because of shitty 1.25 TS of nearly all HMG weapon teams (only HMG34 OKW stock weapon team is 1, if I am not lost my memorycard) because blobbers (not allied blobbers, just all kind of blobbers) and conscript spammers cried too much into balance teams jacket.

You probably never played on release because the increased size on team weapons was mainly to combat Maxim spam.

All MGs and mortars should have 1.25. There are exceptions: ISG is at 1.0, land mattress is at 1.25 (Artillery crews are at 1.0).

Because OKW.
It also used to be 50%.

OKW used to be extremely unique and equally silly faction.
Crapload of stuff OKW had "because its OKW".

This should had been removed quite some long time ago according to changelog. Gonna take a look.

Thanks for sharing friend.
My problem is that you still need to move your grens and pgrens to chase the retreating units since they are in relative motion. Perhaps to give grens longer range and pgren slightly faster movement to compensate?

If i not wrong, conscripts are the fastest moving infantry. Perhaps grens should be inbetween cons and rifles/penals?

In terms of cost, i have not done the sum. But i dont think you can get out 2 grens vs 1 penal that fast? So it is not enough to offset the first encounter?

Conscripts dont shoot during oorah, they need to be really close to get retreat wipes.

In my experience grens more often get the wipe then cons do because they are more accurate and fire faster and their rifles do 16 damage.

Thanks for sharing friend.
My problem is that you still need to move your grens and pgrens to chase the retreating units since they are in relative motion.

Are you dense?
He literally explained to you that if grens move while chasing, you're LOSING A LOT OF DPS and you still stand by chasing.
Did you even read his post?

Perhaps to give grens longer range and pgren slightly faster movement to compensate?

Why grens should have more range then any other infantry in game?
Why PGs should move faster then any other infantry in game?

If i not wrong, conscripts are the fastest moving infantry. Perhaps grens should be inbetween cons and rifles/penals?

You are wrong.

In terms of cost, i have not done the sum. But i dont think you can get out 2 grens vs 1 penal that fast? So it is not enough to offset the first encounter?

Yes, yes you can.
You'll always outnumber penal opening by at least 1 squad, if you don't, you underproduced.

Yea i did read. Thats why i asked. Retreating units are moving away from your range. Allies can chase but wehr cant due to dps. Hence im thinking gren can have additional range to compensate.
Pgren can move a bit faster to compensate.
I just tested in cheatmod, cons move speed is higher for sure.

Can we get 2 grens vs penal at around same time? Besides if you move 2 squads to combat, you lose the capping advantage. Im not sure if earlier map control helps in 2v2. I think the meta now is for allies to build up a sizeable force even if you lose earlier map.

Issues like better retreating wipes add to that force build up imo

Perhaps to give grens longer range and pgren slightly faster movement to compensate?

Yea i did read. Thats why i asked. Retreating units are moving away from your range. Allies can chase but wehr cant due to dps.

Yup, you're definitely dense.

Again, there is no stock unit with higher DPS then panzer grens.
Grens have access to G43, the best weapon in the whole game to chase, no other faction weapons come even close to that.
You're still ignoring the fact that not all weapons are supposed to chase, allies do not do it better, tommies are worst inf in game to do so.
Your argument is completely invalid.

Hence im thinking gren can have additional range to compensate.

There is nothing to give to compensate, because there is nothing to compensate.
Its mechanic understanding and L2P issue.

Pgren can move a bit faster to compensate.

To compensate for what?
Having highest non doctrinal in game DPS?

I just tested in cheatmod, cons move speed is higher for sure.

You've tested wrong.

Can we get 2 grens vs penal at around same time? Besides if you move 2 squads to combat, you lose the capping advantage. Im not sure if earlier map control helps in 2v2. I think the meta now is for allies to build up a sizeable force even if you lose earlier map.

Yes.
And fun fact:
If you open with penals, you also lose capping advantage, because you go for latest and most expensive mainline.
And meta is to capture fuel and deny opponents fuel as long as possible in 2s.

Issues like better retreating wipes add to that force build up imo

So position yourself on retreat path.
Again, understanding and L2P issue.

In terms of cost, i have not done the sum. But i dont think you can get out 2 grens vs 1 penal that fast? So it is not enough to offset the first encounter?

You need to look at the bigger picture, penals are more expensive and slower to produce, they're a strategic risk in 1v1 and 2v2 to a lesser degree, but there is more to Ostheer than just grens. Penals don't have an answer to a well-placed MG and soviet T1 is a lot more gimmicky when it comes to clearing out MGs, you're meant to use that to your advantage and not go "HURR DURR MUH KRUPPSTAHL INFANTRY AREN'T OBERSOLDATEN"

You need to look at the bigger picture, penals are more expensive and slower to produce, they're a strategic risk in 1v1 and 2v2 to a lesser degree, but there is more to Ostheer than just grens. Penals don't have an answer to a well-placed MG and soviet T1 is a lot more gimmicky when it comes to clearing out MGs, you're meant to use that to your advantage and not go "HURR DURR MUH KRUPPSTAHL INFANTRY AREN'T OBERSOLDATEN"

Clown car hardcounters MG. If it hits vet 1 you need to be careful. But you have a whole reloading cycle time to adjust.