Pgrens and penals need some changes

I am of the opinion that both these units come too early for the firepower and utility they provide, now we are stuck in a meta where penals and pgrens are replacing cons and grens respectively. This is a grade A example of the term powercreep

In my opinion penals should be changed to an AT unit, possible price change to match. Pgrens should be reverted to T2 or at least have their panzershreks tied to tech.

The counter to premium infantry is light vehicles, but pgrens and penal builds instead of being punished by this counter allow you at a click of a button to convert an AT squad and just stall for Ostwind/T70 respectively while your remaining squads vet and out trade even upgraded mainlines. This is problematic for obvious reasons as the opposition is punished for reacting to a build as his fuel investment is negated by a small muni upgrade.

Thoughts?

Price of Penals are fine and Pzgrens timing has been improved. I mean it is not like they are cheap!

I do not like the idea of them being changed or nerfed in that sense.

Penals are fine with AT upgrade being available early as their T1 base only option for AT is Penals only.

Wehr used to be only grens and hardly pzgrens. Putting back as it used to be would definitely be a terrible idea. I like the general changes for Osteehr. It is a great improvement.

Now its is more diverse and fun to play. Tired of only being able to pick grens only. I mean, now it is not as if there is zero grens being utilised. It is still being used.

Ammo for AT upgrade is not cheap, its costy. 100 ammo for Pzgrens is a lot. It loses AI capabilities in the process so, I do not see why it should be nerfed.

I think the AT upgrade for Pzgrens should be locked behind T2. In that way, they wont skip T2. That is the best resolution for balancing. This idea might not be necessary! Why, I will explain!

The downside of skipping T2 currently is the fact they purchase AT for 100 ammo, in addition leaving them exposed entirely to Anti Infantry. So, there is a form of punishment for skipping T2 currently. Osteehr will lack most definitely, AI capabilities! You just have to build more infantry instead of light vehicles. This will counter Osteehr.

Stalling for Ostwind is overall a risky and costy play.

It is currently hard to evaluate correctly the way the teching for Osteehr functions since Tiger Ace timing is an issue!

Pzgrens are great when they become available directly after when Battle Phase 1 is researched.

Thoughts?
You are wrong.
They both are coming exactly when they should be and they got exactly that abilities which they require. AT options as well are just what needed, because "tech into the better tank and hoping that it will carry everything solo" is what is more cancerous than core infantry spam and blobbing. Thats why T70/Stuart/AEC can no longer just ram out and wipe out (or heavily disturb in case of AEC) wehrmacht early anti-infantry build unsupported and PIV cannot simply rush into ZIS/Su-76 unsupported while schreks and satchels are not wiping those units out, but just let them play safer. Penals were earlier having just satchels without PTRS (which was better for 222 and Luchs), and it caused bad, unfun games with unstoppable spam of only 2 units like Zis-3 and penals. Any nerf of 2ble schreks (for example, giving them only 1 schreck per squad) will lead into pgren blobbing because there will be a powerful mid-range unit with good anti-tank capabilities. Going back into the old-fashioned T2 pgren or schrek-lock into T2 will lead a later coming and loss for real early-AT option which is not a 320 manpower spent to just get away from something like 270 mp unit with faction, which starves in manpower more than in fuel in early game.
The only problem in comparement of those two units is that pgrens this patch can be simply converted into well long-range unit with not big muni investment from several doctrines, while penals can be converted into close-combat unit only with one doctrine, which is specific for whole soviet faction design. In my opinion SVT/PPSH package should be avalaible in more doctrines on the place of bugged and at the same time annoying for opponent radio-intercept as example, but this last chapter of text wall is offtopic.

The downside of skipping T2 currently is the fact they purchase AT for 100 ammo, in addition leaving them exposed entirely to Anti Infantry. So, there is a form of punishment for skipping T2 currently. Osteehr will lack most definitely, AI capabilities! You just have to build more infantry instead of light vehicles. This will counter Osteehr.

Build more infantry to counter 3 mg-42 and 2 pgrens - best advice i ever heard...Don't forget about AP rounds and TM's that could make sunny day for your LV and infantry more grimmy. But i agree, that all strats with skipping tech to get fast armor must have element of risk. Like when you try go through 2 ATG to IS-2, you have very tough time.
Problem with penals, that they become only one viable openning for SU. You can't deal with OST and OKW with cons now. It will be very big resource drain for mediocre results and deep hole in you ealry-mid game. While T1 opening gives you more stable result. Every long range weapon makes penals more stronger, while every close combat makes them weaker - they too fragile to carry ppsh, without smoke and run all close combat waepon is dangerous for them.
Were some suggsetions about possible ways to rework penal meta - like make them dedicated closecombat squad or AT hunters squad. But all changes of penals lead us to rework cons and maxims. These 2 units even after all recent changes still underdogs is SU roster. You always have better options to not build them. IMHO, i prefer that penals become narrow specialists squad, while cons become mainline infantry and get stronger and new abilities from every building. Like OST tier system, but exclusively for cons. It makes them bridgestone of SU army, they could be become foundation for various mixes of units combinations. I very like how PGrens get upgrade that exclusively work with vehicle, that show their origin as mechanized infantry. Something closer to this will be very good for cons.

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Thoughts?

Well I pointed that out couple of year ago .

Mainline infatry should be used to determine the power level of each time-frame.

The other solution would be to toned down their AI weapon and have them as an upgrade and that the AT upgrade is removed from these units and their AT version become a separate unit.

I wonder if SuperHansFan posted this thread when penals were buffed and replaced cons complaining about powercreep. "Just so SU can fight volks so we need penals." I'm sure he didn't have a problem with that. But now SU's days of one-upping grens with penals is largely done since its counterpart pgrens have been buffed. Oh he isn't happy about that. "Just so Ost can keep up with double upgraded WFA troops without having disparity in vet levels"

I think an interesting idea is to switch the Grens and PGs' places and make T1 have upgrades for the PGs like it was with the PE in CoH. You'd have an upgrade that unlocks the repair function, the tank coordination ability and so on instead of them being so good and early straight out of the gate. If you plan on using them you can invest in improving them, just a thought.

Pgrens and Penals are too good but double Bar Riflemen and 5 man double lmg Sections are ok? Are we playing the same game?

Pgrens and Penals are too good but double Bar Riflemen and 5 man double lmg Sections are ok? Are we playing the same game?

Idk. I'm playing a game where it's important to understand the difference between investing 1 resource and investing 3. What game are you playing?

As bad as it is, power creep has finally caught up with all the factions, and created mainline infantry balance - it just turns out people don't like it. At this point, there are pretty much two choices:

1) Leave it as it currently is, with possibly some minor tweaks here and there to price/build time.

2) Re-work every single on-map combat infantry squad.

People (myself included) have been saying that penals are far too strong for their time frame for years, but most just said "yea, it's needed because Volks/Grens are too strong vs. Cons". Now that OST has basically the same 'strong early AI' to counter the incredibly strong double-bar/double-bren combo that's also been going on for years, we're finally seeing that power-creep isn't the answer.

Realistically, i'd prefer option 2, but I doubt it's going to happen. It would take a TON of effort.

Idk. I'm playing a game where it's important to understand the difference between investing 1 resource and investing 3. What game are you playing?

The difference is when you play USF or UKF you are allowed to feed upgrades to your infantry while Penals and PzGrens can only get side-grades that make them almost completely useless for AI. Yes you do end up investing more ressources but the infantry you get scales way better and ultimately has more combat power than Penals and Pgrens. Your argument is completely meaningless to be honest, you can not get an infinite number of infantry units out. It´s not sustainable for your MP economy. It´s not muni or fuel that limits the number of infantry you have but MP. Give me 3 5 men tommies with double LMG over 3 Penals any day.

I wonder if SuperHansFan posted this thread when penals were buffed and replaced cons complaining about powercreep. "Just so SU can fight volks so we need penals." I'm sure he didn't have a problem with that. But now SU's days of one-upping grens with penals is largely done since its counterpart pgrens have been buffed. Oh he isn't happy about that. "Just so Ost can keep up with double upgraded WFA troops without having disparity in vet levels"

He literally said nerf penals AND pgrens. And you found a way to see that as biased...

I wonder if SuperHansFan posted this thread when penals were buffed and replaced cons complaining about powercreep. "Just so SU can fight volks so we need penals." I'm sure he didn't have a problem with that. But now SU's days of one-upping grens with penals is largely done since its counterpart pgrens have been buffed. Oh he isn't happy about that. "Just so Ost can keep up with double upgraded WFA troops without having disparity in vet levels"

If you read through my post history you'll find I've always been in favor of removing cheese like maxim spam and instead changing Soviets with small conscript buffs (eg combining moli and at nade tech). I've never defended penal spam

But feel free to search for my apparent bias despite me mentioning axis and allied problems in the OP. Btw I was warning about this issue even before patch... Now all we see is meta of players ignoring T2 until ostwind

Similar issue with cost effectiveness Soviets get with penal that always culminates in map dominance with T70.

Pgrens and Penals are too good but double Bar Riflemen and 5 man double lmg Sections are ok? Are we playing the same game?

Well yes, when you factor in they are way more cost effective and at vet can handle upgraded rifles or 5 man Tommies easy.

Issue is to get this effective infantry on par with penal/pgren as USF or UKF you're having to invest a lot of fuel, muni and manpower, right now Ost can skip T2 altogether until your shock vehicle hits. Making it even worse.

A minor extra MP cost is really nothing when your opponent has to sink into fuel+mp infantry upgrades or luch just to stand a chance against your premium infantry. And like I say, even if you invest in a LV like luch/Stuart/wasp/AEC it's going to be negated by a cheap AT upgrade and spammed mines with their muni surplus, they don't even need AT guns.

Well yes, when you factor in they are way more cost effective and at vet can handle upgraded rifles or 5 man Tommies easy.

Pgrens with vet cannot "handle upgraded rifles or 5 man Tommies easy" with similar vet. They get demolished much like any other infantry squad. Double bar Vet 3 rifles / Double bren vet 3 IS are undisputedly the strongest, most cost efficient on-map squads in the game.

Even if you invest in a LV like luch/Stuart/wasp/AEC it's going to be negated by a cheap AT upgrade and spammed mines with their muni surplus, they don't even need AT guns.

Don't invest in an LV and try to push with it into shrek squads; they're designed to counter that kind of play. Go for an AAHT/Quad and suppress the shreks at range, they'll have no counter to it since they have to ATG.

As for the 'muni surpluss', between 100 muni shrecks, 60muni "bolster", 60muni LMG42, grenades, etc. ost isn't floating a lot of muni early game.

The difference is when you play USF or UKF you are allowed to feed upgrades to your infantry while Penals and PzGrens can only get side-grades that make them almost completely useless for AI. Yes you do end up investing more ressources but the infantry you get scales way better and ultimately has more combat power than Penals and Pgrens. Your argument is completely meaningless to be honest, you can not get an infinite number of infantry units out. It´s not sustainable for your MP economy. It´s not muni or fuel that limits the number of infantry you have but MP. Give me 3 5 men tommies with double LMG over 3 Penals any day.

Penals and now pgrens dominate the field when they hit it allowing for more resources and then when their AI starts to falter they can fall into an AT role. The strat is just overwhelming AI shock units which wouldn't be a problem at all if they didn't also have built in AT to turn to.


I too prefer to take the unit that costs the most resources (an upgunned and bolstered Tommy squad costs what? A T70 worth of manpower and fuel on the unlocks alone and then a boat load of munitions? The humanity!) that's their design. Sink resources into this unit and it gets better! EFA design is different. And the attempt to bring them up to snuff with the overbearing design of WFA infantry has left them overpowered when they hit the field.

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Thoughts?

It took you years and a patch that buffed OST with T1 Pgren to figure out yourself that Penuls had a terrible design and overperforming investment.

I'd say keep the Pgren and penals as they are right now. The balance is now scaled.

WARNING! Bias towards allies detected! Proceed with caution.

Well yes, when you factor in they are way more cost effective and at vet can handle upgraded rifles or 5 man Tommies easy.

Not if Pgren went AT package. Also penuls dont fight against tommies. So Pinuls > Pgren (by your statement)

Issue is to get this effective infantry on par with penal/pgren as USF or UKF you're having to invest a lot of fuel, muni and manpower, right now Ost can skip T2 altogether until your shock vehicle hits. Making it even worse.

OST has finally an opening against endless patches of allied early pressure and that is bad?
I see you never played OST.

A minor extra MP cost is really nothing when your opponent has to sink into fuel+mp infantry upgrades or luch just to stand a chance against your premium infantry. And like I say, even if you invest in a LV like luch/Stuart/wasp/AEC it's going to be negated by a cheap AT upgrade and spammed mines with their muni surplus, they don't even need AT guns.

That was always the case with penuls.

I feel that the strength of pgrens AI and AT is being overestimated. Only conscripts and riflemen really struggle with pgrens. But the USF has plenty of tools to fight pgrens, if you go LT an m20 and 50. cals will be a big problem for pgrens to deal with. If you go captain, the AAHT will shut them down aswell, also leaving no room to counter with shrecks (unless they use camo, and even then actually chasing and taking down the AAHT is impossible, you would need 2 shreck squads in camo to kill it).

Brit IS only loose to pgrens at short-mid range, if they are in cover they can totally beat advancing pgrens with bolster, they still got mgs and UC to cause problems aswell.

Penals aren't that terrible against pgrens, since they are better at long range than riflemen and soviets have shocks which work quite well against pgrens. Snipers are always helpful too, 2 shots and pgren has to retreat.

If an OST player is going for gren/pgren mix, he will have 2 pgrens at most, he simply won't have the manpower to afford more, then forcing 1 of them to get shrecks means that the OST player has 2 grens and 1 pgren left for AI, their MG42s are still a problem, so getting a mortar or 2 would really help out. Skipping T2 means no LVs for OST, unless they go for 250 in a specific doctrine, which isn't that strong against your mainlines with snares or penals with ptrs anyway. Pgrens with shrecks are also not hard to outmaneuver with an LV. Don't just wait for them to show up and fire their volley at you, think about where they are and avoid them, there is only 1, if your opponent will go for more shrecks he won't have enough infantry to fight your infantry. The reason the OST player doesn't necessarily loose at this point is MG42s, which you would have enough MP to counter with mortars/sniper, unless you bled a lot.

Pgrens are 340 manpower
340 manpower for a 4 man squad.