StuG and JPIV Penetration

Yes wind down/reload time is another reason why Wehr P4/P5 scale poorly late game. The level up is smaller than Allies. Its why frustrating that panther misses on the move and you wait for the next shot.

What I don't understand is why does the Stug TWP now take forever to load. It used to be almost instant, (which isn't balanced either) but now it takes much longer than a normal shot. I never use Stug TWP. It's entirely useless because 1) takes a very long time to load 2) does much less damage 3) the time of effect is significantly reduced. 4) The ability is often bugged and the enemy tank still manages to shoot despite the "blind eye" icon is still present? I think the ability should be reverted to what it was before except keep the current 5s disable time. The only thing op about the old TWP was how long the tank was disabled and the fact that the TWP was literally instant but now the loading time is far too long.

I agree that the skirts bonus on Stug is next to useless. By the time you get vet 2, heavies will appear, at guns still pen almost 100% even with the skirts, stock allied meds only bounce every third shot. I think we should move a bit more or all of the RoF boost from vet 3 to vet 2 and give a pen bonus or +5 range at vet 3.

Wind up/down: isn't it there to help with those fringe cases on units having a different munition type in order to avoid double shots?

Or it might be there to balance out reload vet buffs?

What I don't understand is why does the Stug TWP now take forever to load. It used to be almost instant, (which isn't balanced either) but now it takes much longer than a normal shot. I never use Stug TWP. It's entirely useless because 1) takes a very long time to load 2) does much less damage 3) the time of effect is significantly reduced. 4) The ability is often bugged and the enemy tank still manages to shoot despite the "blind eye" icon is still present? I think the ability should be reverted to what it was before except keep the current 5s disable time. The only thing op about the old TWP was how long the tank was disabled and the fact that the TWP was literally instant but now the loading time is far too long.

I agree that the skirts bonus on Stug is next to useless. By the time you get vet 2, heavies will appear, at guns still pen almost 100% even with the skirts, stock allied meds only bounce every third shot. I think we should move a bit more or all of the RoF boost from vet 3 to vet 2 and give a pen bonus or +5 range at vet 3.

I see little reason why so many Otheer units should have TWP and actually different version of it.(there area actually 5 version of the ability)

Simply replace it single AP round with higher penetration. (this would be good change for USF AP round also).

I see little reason why so many Otheer units should have TWP and actually different version of it.(there area actually 5 version of the ability)

Simply replace it single AP round with higher penetration. (this would be good change for USF AP round also).

I'm not even sure what Target Weak Point does any more.

I'd replace it across the board with the OKW Puma's Aimed Shot.

but i don't like snipers so I would say that

Not all stats make sense. Actually allot do not. Especially since the same viable exist for different type of weapons.

I suppose that what happens when Relic solved every problem with some quick hotfix tape.

Six years later you've got this big, super complicated ball of tape. There are more exceptions than rules in CoH 2.

In an ideal world this game could really do with some sweeping standardisations to unit performance, but it's such a big job I doubt it'll ever happen.

I'm not even sure what Target Weak Point does any more.

I'd replace it across the board with the OKW Puma's Aimed Shot.

but i don't like snipers so I would say that

Same here, I'm confused about the ability. I never use it anymore because I'd rather shoot normal shots.

Wind up/down: isn't it there to help with those fringe cases on units having a different munition type in order to avoid double shots?

Or it might be there to balance out reload vet buffs?

I don't think so, because for example the Ostheer Panther has a wind down time even though it has no special munitions of any kind. They could be there to balance reload vet buffs or balance turrets vs casemates, but there are inconsistencies that might disprove that (for example the KT has no wind up/down but it does have a turret and it does have reload veterancy). Of course it could just be something that one guy at Relic introduced for exactly these purposes and forgot to told the other guys who made some other vehicles.

I've asked Relic. Wind up and win down times have nothing to do with balance. They are there simply for animation purposes. Basically it has something to do with the recoil animation and some tanks needing more time for it.

I dont even think Twp do much damages except blind the tank for 2-3s ?
Very useless ability.
Please change to AP HEAT round, 200 damages 1000 pen or something.

I'm not even sure what Target Weak Point does any more.

I'd replace it across the board with the OKW Puma's Aimed Shot.

but i don't like snipers so I would say that

Elephant/88
+100% penetration, will stun enemy vehicle.

Pak
+900% penetration for 10 seconds. Hits disable weapons and movement for 5 seconds.

Stug-E
Penetrating shells will stun enemy vehicle, disabling its gun and vision for 5 seconds. Will always penetrate. -40 damage.

Stug-G
+100% penetration, will lock enemy vehicles turret temporarily and disable its main gun.

Puma
Penetrating shells will stun enemy vehicle, disabling its gun and vision for 5 seconds. Will always penetrate. -60 damage.

PaK40 stun doens't disable movement. It only slowes done the movementspeed.

....

I've asked Relic. Wind up and win down times have nothing to do with balance. They are there simply for animation purposes. Basically it has something to do with the recoil animation and some tanks needing more time for it.

Then it wind down probably also works as limit so that the weapon will not fire until animation is done.

I suppose that what happens when Relic solved every problem with some quick hotfix tape.

Six years later you've got this big, super complicated ball of tape. There are more exceptions than rules in CoH 2.

In an ideal world this game could really do with some sweeping standardisations to unit performance, but it's such a big job I doubt it'll ever happen.

I prefer vcoh2 or close to that.

The original has clearer faction designs, distinctive abilities that have clearer leveling tiers, more asymmetrey, more rng unpredictable so every game is different. Sure this create balancing issues if you fall behind in tiering, but its make unit perservation fun, makes mastering a faction fun.

Now it is everything goes, the engagement pace has picked up, too much arty, too much camping, more standardised meta to follow.

I belive Relic just needs to tweak the original formula a bit more, instead of gutting the core design choices with black tapes. Their balancing is strange, this patch is supposed to work on certain units while others should not be touched.

But su76 can camo with doctrine. It's a cheaper alternative and before de barrage price nerf it was used in the meta. A su76 comes early enough to fight P4 and even though it can't solo them, coupled with a zis you could repel and even kill it.

Su76 =/= stugs (lol autocorrect used here drugs)

Simply because the units they have to face.

Its cheaper because sov t3 and ost t3 are not the same. Sov tier 3 is ost tier 2.5. A 222 scout car can kill it if it can get on its rear.

The su76 was nerfed because it could reliably fight panthers and heavies to an extent. Overshadowing the su85 wich is more expensive. A just nerf imo.

Its cheaper because sov t3 and ost t3 are not the same. Sov tier 3 is ost tier 2.5. A 222 scout car can kill it if it can get on its rear.

The su76 was nerfed because it could reliably fight panthers and heavies to an extent. Overshadowing the su85 wich is more expensive. A just nerf imo.

I think it was more a problem of the SU-76 also obliterating AT guns.

One SU-76's barrage was okay.

Four of them at once was a dead Pak.

Elephant/88
+100% penetration, will stun enemy vehicle.

Pak
+900% penetration for 10 seconds. Hits disable weapons and movement for 5 seconds.

Stug-E
Penetrating shells will stun enemy vehicle, disabling its gun and vision for 5 seconds. Will always penetrate. -40 damage.

Stug-G
+100% penetration, will lock enemy vehicles turret temporarily and disable its main gun.

Puma
Penetrating shells will stun enemy vehicle, disabling its gun and vision for 5 seconds. Will always penetrate. -60 damage.

This is the shit that drives me crazy. 5 abilities with the same name that do something different depending on the unit. Like Mark target and hit the dirt there is no additional in game information that would help a new player understand what the fuck they are doing. It would be like renaming the satchel charges as normal grenades cause fuck clarity...

I think it was more a problem of the SU-76 also obliterating AT guns.

One SU-76's barrage was okay.

Four of them at once was a dead Pak.

Part of the problem with SU-76 barrage is it vets abnormal fast and the barrage benefits from the damage increase.

Kill radius at vet 2 should be around 1.875 when mortars have 0 kill radius.

I prefer vcoh2 or close to that.

The original has clearer faction designs, distinctive abilities that have clearer leveling tiers, more asymmetrey, more rng unpredictable so every game is different.

I belive Relic just needs to tweak the original formula a bit more, instead of gutting the core design choices with black tapes. Their balancing is strange, this patch is supposed to work on certain units while others should not be touched.

I don't think you remember well what vcoh2 means.

Original design means, the only useful things are the ones which are broken OP and cheesy. You live and die by the meta, cause any deviation is insta 90% lose compare to todays meta, because faction can actually hold on it's own with non doctrinal stuff.

"Now it is everything goes, the engagement pace has picked up, too much arty, too much camping, more standardised meta to follow."

Games were defined in the first 7 mins by either FHT (stupid vet2) or T70 (which had crush).
Too much arty? What about turbomortar and precision strike on every single soviet piece. 120mm nuking your squads every 60s if you didn't move them? B4 nuking tanks with pinpoint accuracy? Did you play with old Joint Operations on 2v2+? You could fire LefH nonstop because the cooldown would refresh after it ended shooting up after vet2.

Camping is playing with/against Maxim spam. Having every freaking 2v2+ been Guard Motor/ISU152 vs Joint Operation/Elephant/I win pinning run.

After they somehow fixed vCoH2 factions, they broke the game again with WFA. I always found it funny that some of the people who complained about UKF simcity, weren't as vehement with OKW when 2v2+ was camping around forward medic HQ, ISG, using fortifications MG34 + pak43 into KT.

Sure this create balancing issues if you fall behind in tiering, but its make unit perservation fun, makes mastering a faction fun.

There was no such a thing as unit preservation with the amount of AoE wiping abilities.

I don't think you remember well what vcoh2 means.

Original design means, the only useful things are the ones which are broken OP and cheesy. You live and die by the meta, cause any deviation is insta 90% lose compare to todays meta, because faction can actually hold on it's own with non doctrinal stuff.

Ahh, good times.
Soviet didn't had guards by 4th minute?
GG, ost won.

Ost mismicroed and lost HMG42?
GG, soviets won.

P4 reached vet2?
GG, nothing short of IS-2 stands a chance anymore.

Ost managed to hold out until Tiger Ace CP was reached?
GG, if there are not at least 3 T34s on field, its automatic loss for soviet.

Soviet has a lot of infantry?
Ost clicked "current pin plane name" and done, no more infantry on field and whatever enters strafe zone is eradicated.

And all the exact same vet1 ability for literally everything.
Is it infantry? All have medkits and tripwires.
Is it armor? All have capture point or blitz.

vcoh2 was a terrible game and coh1 fanboys did had a point when they claimed coh1 superiority, but that, thankfully, changed year later and proceeded to change.

Oh lord... vcoh2, yikes. 3 man mg-42s and so many things broken. The balance is SOOOO much better now.

Anyway, back on topic. The StuG is in this weird niche place right now where it's not really a unit that you want to get, it's a unit you sometimes feel like you have to get because you can't afford a p4 and you really need to deal with a tank. Once said tank is dead, you just wish you had a p4 and the Stug just kind of sits there.

Reality often isn't a great excuse for balance, but it does strike me as odd that the second most produced vehicle of the war for the Germans (behind the halftrack) is a niche unit that you don't often see. I mostly play and watch 1v1s, and maybe that's different in team games, but it still seems in a weird place.

Now, this may sound crazy, but is there anything inherently wrong with upping the fuel cost of the StuG to 110 or even 120 and making it more of a generalist unit like the p4? Get rid of target weak point and increase the aoe of it's main gun a bit to be less good than a p4 but better than what it is now.

In that way, OST t3 would break down into 3 generalist units like this:

Ostwind:
Good against strong infantry focus comps.

+ Durable, mobile, strong AI, able to damage light vehicles.
- Helpless against tanks (arguably not a true generalist but more so than say an m20 or something).

StuG:
Defensive generalist.

+ Range, better AT option than a p4
- Lack of mobility and no turret means poor chase unit and vulnerable to flanks; not as strong AI as ostwind or p4.

P4:
True generalist tank, more offensive option.

+ Turret, speed, mobility, can engage all but the heaviest units, flexible.
- Lacks range and pen of StuG, not as strong AI as ostwind.

In this way, the StuG suddenly becomes a true option vs a p4 and not just a crutch unit you build because you're short on fuel.