The Panther doesn't counter anything, especially not heavy vehicles with it's low ass dps.
Is this a joke?
Because I'm not sure what to say to you if it's not other than 'no'.
StuG and JPIV Penetration
10 Jun 2019, 12:00 PM
#141
Posts: 3260
Is this a joke?
Because I'm not sure what to say to you if it's not other than 'no'.
10 Jun 2019, 12:34 PM
#142
Posts: 783
The Panther doesn't counter anything, especially not heavy vehicles with it's low ass dps.
Panther is a great tank but you can not simply expect it to do the job on its own as it really requires, just as much as any other tank "support".
It counters most things but it does have indeed a challenging time in fact in combating some heavy tanks.
All in all it counters most things and it does not have a low dps. You have to treat it carefully and not recklessly.
I enjoy Coh2. I want this game to be balanced as it can possibly be for
ukf
usf
okw
soviets
ostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced. 
This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
ukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced. This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
10 Jun 2019, 13:01 PM
#143
Posts: 868 | Subs: 5
The StuG and JPIV have pretty low penetration values for dedicated tank destroyers. They're an improvement over Panzer IV rounds, but they don't cut it against heavies.
As a result, pretty much every game where a heavy tank is on the table OST/OKW goes for a 185 FU Panther.
Would it be an overall improvement if the StuG and JPIV got some sort of penetration buff (either a flat buff or through a timed ability like the Jackson) to allow them to handle heavies? It'd create a second option: go for a cheaper dedicated AT vehicle that requires support.
Does this open up more interesting builds, or do people prefer always fighting/using Panthers?
===========
No.
SU76 = StuIIIG (StuIIIG is better) SU76 is weaker but has arty.
Su85 = Panther
Different, but same idea.
People scream for SU76 pen to be reduced, yet it does less dmg (120 vs 160) and has less pen than StuG
... and you want StuG to be buffed?
Wouldn't it be great if SU-76 could handle Tigers and Panthers 1 on 1 ?
That's basically what you are asking for.
People complain the Soviets are useless.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
10 Jun 2019, 13:05 PM
#144
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
===========
No.
SU76 = StuIIIG (StuIIIG is better) SU76 is weaker but has arty.
Su85 = Panther
Different, but same idea.
People scream for SU76 pen to be reduced, yet it does less dmg (120 vs 160) and has less pen than StuG
... and you want StuG to be buffed?
Wouldn't it be great if SU-76 could handle Tigers and Panthers 1 on 1 ?
That's basically what you are asking for.
Check your stats the Stug does not have more penetration the SU-76.
10 Jun 2019, 13:16 PM
#145
Posts: 1289
It seems OK. However, if panther is a super-TD in the same class of M36 and FF, then it should get same range atleast.
And i dont think the cost of SU76 equals JP4. Same cost as M36, deals good with mediums only. The performance should justify the price.
Then the ff needs to be faster and together with the m36 they need more health and armour and get heavy crush. Then it can get the same range.
The panther already has lost of things going for it. It does not justify or need one more.
The su76 has less health and armour then the stug or jadpzr. Does less damage per shot and cant cloak. And unlike the su76 it gets a health buff with vet. Imo a paperweight td wich is a 2.5 tier td and not a tier 3 td, should not cost the same while all it has is range on the counterparts from axis.
10 Jun 2019, 13:30 PM
#146
Posts: 3260
===========
No.
SU76 = StuIIIG (StuIIIG is better) SU76 is weaker but has arty.
Su85 = Panther
Different, but same idea.
People scream for SU76 pen to be reduced, yet it does less dmg (120 vs 160) and has less pen than StuG
... and you want StuG to be buffed?
Wouldn't it be great if SU-76 could handle Tigers and Panthers 1 on 1 ?
That's basically what you are asking for.
But the StuG isn't equivalent to the SU-76. In terms of timing and firepower the SU-76 is equivalent to the Puma.
The closest thing to the StuG is the M10, which has timed AP rounds and the speed/turret combo to attack the rear armour of things.
10 Jun 2019, 13:55 PM
#147
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
I've got a question: where does this fast rate of fire for the JPIV thing come from?
Looking through the stats it's pretty similar to the Jackson and SU-85.
Reload is 5 seconds at vet 0, versus Jackson's 6.55s and SU-85s 5.65s.
But the real fun begins when it gets veterancy, as its reload with vet decreases to 3.523s at vet 4.
(SU-85 has 4.57s and Jackson 5.054s at vet 3)
In addition to that it also gets 800HP at vet 2, so it will out-DPS (versus hp) all Allied TDs with ease.
10 Jun 2019, 13:59 PM
#148
Posts: 2358
Then the ff needs to be faster and together with the m36 they need more health and armour and get heavy crush. Then it can get the same range.
The panther already has lost of things going for it. It does not justify or need one more.
The su76 has less health and armour then the stug or jadpzr. Does less damage per shot and cant cloak. And unlike the su76 it gets a health buff with vet. Imo a paperweight td wich is a 2.5 tier td and not a tier 3 td, should not cost the same while all it has is range on the counterparts from axis.
But su76 can camo with doctrine. It's a cheaper alternative and before de barrage price nerf it was used in the meta. A su76 comes early enough to fight P4 and even though it can't solo them, coupled with a zis you could repel and even kill it.
Su76 =/= stugs (lol autocorrect used here drugs)
Simply because the units they have to face.
10 Jun 2019, 14:03 PM
#149
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Reload is 5 seconds at vet 0, versus Jackson's 6.55s and SU-85s 5.65s.
But the real fun begins when it gets veterancy, as its reload with vet decreases to 3.523s at vet 4.
(SU-85 has 4.57s and Jackson 5.054s at vet 3)
In addition to that it also gets 800HP at vet 2, so it will out-DPS (versus hp) all Allied TDs with ease.
Where do you have those numbers from?
I looked into the game files and Jackson has a reload of 4,375-4,975 (avg 4,675), SU85 has 5,4-5,4. Did I look up the wrong category?
10 Jun 2019, 14:07 PM
#150
Posts: 3260
Reload is 5 seconds at vet 0, versus Jackson's 6.55s and SU-85s 5.65s.
But the real fun begins when it gets veterancy, as its reload with vet decreases to 3.523s at vet 4.
(SU-85 has 4.57s and Jackson 5.054s at vet 3)
In addition to that it also gets 800HP at vet 2, so it will out-DPS (versus hp) all Allied TDs with ease.
I've got the Jackson's Vet 0 reload down as 4.38s to 4.97s.
Vet 3 reload is down as 2.98s - 3.38s.
10 Jun 2019, 14:11 PM
#151
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
But su76 can camo with doctrine. It's a cheaper alternative and before de barrage price nerf it was used in the meta. A su76 comes early enough to fight P4 and even though it can't solo them, coupled with a zis you could repel and even kill it.
Su76 =/= drugs
Simply because the units they have to face.
The problem with pre-nerf SU76 was that it could force a retreat on a P4 Due to range and high pen and that the barrage was free, so it could displace crew weapons and kill 1-2 models of attacking infantry with no extra cost. Also it was quite cheap, so by the time the enemy got a P4, you already hat ~SU76 out, which made the P4 quite useless.
Since it got a double nerf, nobody builds it anymore. It has become mediocre at best at it's AT and can't really fight infantry anymore (35 ammo is quite pricey, especially if you use it against a moving target). I think the SU76 should get back a little bit of far pen or the cost of the barrage should be reduced to ~20 mun.
10 Jun 2019, 14:23 PM
#152
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Where do you have those numbers from?
I looked into the game files and Jackson has a reload of 4,375-4,975 (avg 4,675), SU85 has 5,4-5,4. Did I look up the wrong category?
Wind up/Wind down are stats you should consider as well.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
10 Jun 2019, 14:43 PM
#153
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Wind up/Wind down are stats you should consider as well.
Slightly off topic:
What exactly are the stats that one needs to account for to calculate time to shoot at a target?
I know there is "aim time" (or so) that needs to pass each time a new unit is targeted but not between successive shots at the same target.
Then there is the reload - quite obvious.
There is some post-firing time (=weapon cooldown?) if I recall correctly. Not sure if it applies to vehicles though.
I don't know about more. Could someone please elaborate and tell me where to find them in the game data? Maybe via PM to not clutter the thread.
Thanks!
10 Jun 2019, 14:44 PM
#154
Posts: 1392
I am still for increase range to 55, so hull down becomes usefull for StuG.
10 Jun 2019, 14:55 PM
#155
Posts: 1794
t34/76 isnt meant to deal with panther. But it can still contribute 160 damages even against an expensive vet2 panther. So to say stug should not deal with heavies, dont make sense.
10 Jun 2019, 15:00 PM
#156
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
I've got the Jackson's Vet 0 reload down as 4.38s to 4.97s.
Vet 3 reload is down as 2.98s - 3.38s.
Where do you have those numbers from?
I looked into the game files and Jackson has a reload of 4,375-4,975 (avg 4,675), SU85 has 5,4-5,4. Did I look up the wrong category?
As Elchino said, you also have to take wind up and wind down times into account, that some vehicles have. Tbh I have no idea what it's for and why only some vehicles/weapons have it, but it adds to the reload.
If you use https://coh2db.com/stats/, look up a vehicle's weapon and hover your mouse over the yellow/orange dot in the graph and you'll see what the actual reload time of the weapon is.
10 Jun 2019, 15:02 PM
#157
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
As Elchino said, you also have to take wind up and wind down times into account, that some vehicles have. Tbh I have no idea what it's for and why only some vehicles/weapons have it, but it adds to the reload.
If you use https://coh2db.com/stats/, look up a vehicle's weapon and hover your mouse over the yellow/orange dot in the graph and you'll see what the actual reload time of the weapon is.
Wind up is a time before a shot (before aim time)
Wind down a time after a shot (before cool-down)
10 Jun 2019, 15:05 PM
#158
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Wind up is a time before a shot
Wind down a time after a shot
I meant I have no idea why some weapons/vehicles have it while others don't. I figured wind up could be a mechanic to balance turrets vs casemates (as turreted tanks are able to aquire new targets without moving) but then not all turreted tanks have wind up and down times.
10 Jun 2019, 15:07 PM
#159
Posts: 3260
As Elchino said, you also have to take wind up and wind down times into account, that some vehicles have. Tbh I have no idea what it's for and why only some vehicles/weapons have it, but it adds to the reload.
If you use https://coh2db.com/stats/, look up a vehicle's weapon and hover your mouse over the yellow/orange dot in the graph and you'll see what the actual reload time of the weapon is.
rip all my previous vehicle comparisons
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10 Jun 2019, 15:31 PM
#160
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I meant I have no idea why some weapons/vehicles have it while others don't. I figured wind up could be a mechanic to balance turrets vs casemates (as turreted tanks are able to aquire new targets without moving) but then not all turreted tanks have wind up and down times.
Not all stats make sense. Actually allot do not. Especially since the same viable exist for different type of weapons.
Think it was introduced so that can better adjust ROF.
Aim times is affect by range wind up/wind down it not.
There is also a chance that the wind down is used as the lower limit of cooldown.
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