StuG and JPIV Penetration

You are forgetting the commander bonus. For all practical reason the accuracy of the FF should be considered with 1.1 bonus.

Actually FF has one of the longest mid ranges in the game even longer than the JT and it even get an accuracy bonus with vet. That make one the most accurate units in game being able to 1 shoot kubels with nearly 100% at max range.

Stug is simply not that accurate.

Fine, we'll consider the accuracy bonus. That still makes the Firefly vs StuG only slightly more accurate at 50 range than the Stug vs Firefly. I'm not comparing their raw accuracy, I'm comparing their accuracy while shooting at each other. Once StuG becomes 18 TZ with the patch, their accuracy at 50 range against each other becomes about equal. I'd say that's still pretty much as I described earlier, roughly equal.

It's a fundamental flaw of Ostheer's design. It's not a terrible flaw, but a noticeable nontheless.

The Allies all have one tank tech tier with a tank destroyer that can engage all targets with decent to good efficiency. Ostheer has two tiers and two vehicles, so if their T3 runs into any kind of heavies trouble they not only have to transition into a much more expensive TD, they also have to get extra tech. Even though both their TDs are effective fighters, Ostheer still has a strategic timing and resources disadvantage.

It's been mostly fixed with recent changes to Ostheer's teching costs that made a transition into T4 less painful, but yes there is still the problem that Ostheer T3 is something of a risk because when a KV-1 or anything bigger shows up, their T3 vehicles won't cut it and it takes very long to get a Panther.

I don't think there's much that can be done about that, without making the StuG too cost efficient.

SU have the same tier system as OST and su-76 and stug are identical TD with the same role - fight against medium armor. Everyone remembered old meta with spam of su-76 and stugs, because low cost adn high ROF makes them all very cost effective. After patch that nerfed ROF - su-76 and stug become situational units.
If you want counter heavies with them (panthers, tigers, kv, is) you must build at least 2 or 3 (if have su-76). 3 stugs could kill churchill or is-2 easily, 3 su-76 could kill panther with some micro. But do you want build 3 light TD to counter enemy heavies? IMHO much better get T4 and build panther ot su-85.

FF can keeps reversing and shooting due to range, just do a 90 degree reverse. Stug need to stop to shoot and to rotate.
Either way, the scenario where 2 stug dive in and kill a FF, with worst case 1 dead stug, is rare in real game, with support units. just a tough play to make.

Fine, we'll consider the accuracy bonus. That still makes the Firefly vs StuG only slightly more accurate at 50 range than the Stug vs Firefly. I'm not comparing their raw accuracy, I'm comparing their accuracy while shooting at each other. Once StuG becomes 18 TZ with the patch, their accuracy at 50 range against each other becomes about equal. I'd say that's still pretty much as I described earlier, roughly equal.

Then pls use the term "chance to hit" instead of accuracy it is misleading. The claim was also that the Stug has an advantage.

FF vs New Stug
At range 50 FF has 0.0516*18 = 93% chance to score a natural hit not counting collision hit.
(Since Stug is not flanking adn has less vision the chance of collision hit is quite high)

FF vs new Stug
At range 50 has 0.04*23 = 92%

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This is not accounting for misses, even though StuGs have the advantage here with 20 (after the patch 18) target size vs the Firefly's 23 target size (both have roughly the same accuracy).
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I dough that even the new Stug has an advantage in accuracy here.

P4 isn't going to be dealing great against 34/85, easy8 or dozer blade shermans.
Panther isn't going to be cost efficient and will be easily outspammed.
StuG/JP4 will stand up to the task well, stugs especially.

Not just panther, Stug get outspam by T34 and shermans easily too.

So you just admit Axis tanks are overpriced for the performance finally?

I been saying, vet bonus for Axis tanks needs a revamp, either pen/range for stug and rear armor for panther and HE shell for P4.

Allies tank vet bonus are great for tank roles, penetration, speed, self repairs, accuracy, damages.
Allies tank perform stronger AI roles already, and with weaken rear armor of Axis tank, AT role have improved drastically.

Armor skirts vet is a joke now sadly.

Then pls use the term "chance to hit" instead of accuracy it is misleading

Why else did you think I was talking about their respective target sizes in the same sentence? For completely random purposes?

Why else did you think I was talking about their respective target sizes in the same sentence? For completely random purposes?

Read your sentence again:

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This is not accounting for misses, even though StuGs have the advantage here with 20 (after the patch 18) target size vs the Firefly's 23 target size (both have roughly the same accuracy).
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You clearly write that stug has an advantage in "chance to hit" because they have smaller target size and the accuracy of the value of the 2 vehicles are roughly the same.

Both claims (chance to hit advantage and equal accuracy) are false in live and even in the coming patch.

I simply asked to you check your stats and did so non personal way. "Check your stats for the same distance the claim is simply false" is a polite way to correct one and I don't really see the reason why you felt offended. Now can we stop this silly game of who is right or wrong and simply move on?

I don't think there's much that can be done about that, without making the StuG too cost efficient.

Bear with me on this one.

The StuG and the Panther have the same range and similar reloads, but the StuG is half the price. That means double StuG has twice the damage output of a Panther against an unarmoured target, correct?

Imagine the StuG has the penetration of a Panther, but only does 80 damage. Now double StuG and single Panther do the same damage, right?

Which is better against an IS-2?

JPIV should just be more accessible.

My biggest issue with the stug has already been outlined a bit here: they are cost effective against mediums, but once the medium is off the table, they’re mostly just taking up pop and acting as an mp/repair time drain.

The su-76 at least retains the function of a light artillery piece and can help to clear team weapons or static infantry. Is there anyway to add some similar functionality without making it too attractive vs a p4 or ostwind? The MG is alright now but overall, it’s AI is still too weak to justify having it with no mediums around.

Would adding some sort of bunker buster shot for munis be too much? It’s not very creative, and a lot like the su-76, but at least it would retain functionality in larger fights with no enemy tanks.

My biggest issue with the stug has already been outlined a bit here: they are cost effective against mediums, but once the medium is off the table, they’re mostly just taking up pop and acting as an mp/repair time drain.

The su-76 at least retains the function of a light artillery piece and can help to clear team weapons or static infantry. Is there anyway to add some similar functionality without making it too attractive vs a p4 or ostwind? The MG is alright now but overall, it’s AI is still too weak to justify having it with no mediums around.

Would adding some sort of bunker buster shot for munis be too much? It’s not very creative, and a lot like the su-76, but at least it would retain functionality in larger fights with no enemy tanks.

I'm theory it has target weak point but like all good things some twats abused the hell out of it so now it's a joke of an ability....

I don't really like the bunker buster since it overlaps with the derp stug and the brumbar then as well as being too similar to the su76. Perhaps a small amount of deflection damage with t4 built could allow it to retain use without too much enabling of stug spam.

How about just a targetable smoke shell to help with pushes or retreat?

Not just panther, Stug get outspam by T34 and shermans easily too.

So you just admit Axis tanks are overpriced for the performance finally?

I been saying, vet bonus for Axis tanks needs a revamp, either pen/range for stug and rear armor for panther and HE shell for P4.

Allies tank vet bonus are great for tank roles, penetration, speed, self repairs, accuracy, damages.
Allies tank perform stronger AI roles already, and with weaken rear armor of Axis tank, AT role have improved drastically.

Armor skirts vet is a joke now sadly.

You're playing wrong game is your stugs are outspammed by MORE EXPENSIVE TANKS.
Not a singular allied med tank gets penetration, self repairs or damage.
Stats say that only allied tank that performs better at AI is HE sherman, all other meds perform WORSE because they have LOWER AOE and HIGHER SCATTER.
Rear armor is completely irrelevant for all med tank combat.

Seriously, what is up with you and constant lying about everything past week??

You're playing wrong game is your stugs are outspammed by MORE EXPENSIVE TANKS.
Not a singular allied med tank gets penetration, self repairs or damage.
Stats say that only allied tank that performs better at AI is HE sherman, all other meds perform WORSE because they have LOWER AOE and HIGHER SCATTER.
Rear armor is completely irrelevant for all med tank combat.

Seriously, what is up with you and constant lying about everything past week??

If you factor in the price, T36/76 is a very good AI medium tank, probably better than the P4s.

But back on topic:

Not just panther, Stug get outspam by T34 and shermans easily too.

So you just admit Axis tanks are overpriced for the performance finally?

I been saying, vet bonus for Axis tanks needs a revamp, either pen/range for stug and rear armor for panther and HE shell for P4.

Allies tank vet bonus are great for tank roles, penetration, speed, self repairs, accuracy, damages.
Allies tank perform stronger AI roles already, and with weaken rear armor of Axis tank, AT role have improved drastically.

Armor skirts vet is a joke now sadly.

Most of that is just plain wrong. The only tank that gets damage increase with vet is the Firefly. Most Allied tanks get penetration bonuses, while Axis get armor, which are two sides of the same medal. Technically, an equivalent armor bonus is superior because pen will cap at 100% penetration chance while additional armor will always help you.
In my eyes, Axis tank vet is fine for the most part. They could do with some more speed though.

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Why would you ever risk investing in StuGs when the Panzer IV is almost as good and vastly more versatile?

Jump back to quoted post8 Jun 2019, 17:32 PMLago

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Two StuGs can easily inflict lethal damage on a Firefly faster than the Firefly can inflict lethal damage on one StuG.
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A quote-ception haha
What i mean is literally what you said (unless i am being dumb af here)
Sometimes quantity is more important than quality. Specially when a lower tier tank has to face upper ones.
Its like having 2 squads to assault an MHG. One just cant cut it.

Cost efficiency is being shadowed by raw resource investment. So either premium or really cost effective units are being used in meta, it is rare to see in 1v1s two stugs because they are less versatile (and possibly more popcap demanding) than a single P4. The next step is a panther, so P4+P5 > 2 Stugs in terms of reliability and versatility.

The opposite of versatility is raw strenght in terms of this point. So if your opponent has a single strong unit, or a couple of T34/shermans that a single P4 couldnt handle, there is a slight chance for a stug to be useful. Sadly as i see it, OST cant risk to have a cheaper unit to save resources to reach T4, because stugs being a casemate, they are also very limited in terms of fighting turreted tanks. Only with good mine/infantry support it is able to.

I dont really agree with this mechanic, but it is what it is. I would like to see cheaper units being used in couples/massed agains single better ones. Mostly allies did that but now both sides are getting equal value units (at least with doctrinal help)

You're playing wrong game is your stugs are outspammed by MORE EXPENSIVE TANKS.
Not a singular allied med tank gets penetration, self repairs or damage.
Stats say that only allied tank that performs better at AI is HE sherman, all other meds perform WORSE because they have LOWER AOE and HIGHER SCATTER.
Rear armor is completely irrelevant for all med tank combat.

Seriously, what is up with you and constant lying about everything past week??

No disagree.
Cromwell AI are faster and do more damage.
T3476 AI more cost effective.
Shermans AI are also faster, better mg and better in chasing.

Yet all these, when spammable, does the same hurt against Panther 'rear'.

Self repairs is usf. But i was talking about Allies TD veterancy, very useful in their roles and shutdown all axis tanks in late games.

The simple issue, Axis veterancy theme of armor bonus do not help now, and with more meta going for Churchill and KV/IS2, Wehr player is struggling as you seen.

Most of that is just plain wrong. The only tank that gets damage increase with vet is the Firefly. Most Allied tanks get penetration bonuses, while Axis get armor, which are two sides of the same medal. Technically, an equivalent armor bonus is superior because pen will cap at 100% penetration chance while additional armor will always help you.
In my eyes, Axis tank vet is fine for the most part. They could do with some more speed though.

I was saying the type of vet bonus allies tanks got, not all in one. These are very useful in its roles, the armor theme of Axis is poor now.

Armor skirts are no use if TD scale/have ability to completely ignore it.
Armor skirts are no use if med tank spam can compleletly ignore the 'rear'
The 2 sides of medal are no longer balance imo.

Like a suggestion made, to restore vet armor skirts rear to 120, at least it stops max range shots from med tanks.

I think Axis speed is ok, but at least a moving accuracy vet, since the need to dive in and out against TD is important now.

Yet all these, when spammable, does the same hurt against Panther 'rear'.

You keep saying this but why should the Panther be invincible? It's already an excellent tank that has more armor and more HP than all other medium tanks, and better mobility than most. It needs to have a weakness or it would just steamroll the Allies.

If your Panther is rear armor penned multiple times by other medium tanks, then that's mostly a L2P issue (disregarding the random frontal rear armor RNG hits). If you think the Panther needs to have high rear armor because it was a Wunderwaffen, I suggest you take another look at its irl side and rear armor values.

I was saying the type of vet bonus allies tanks got, not all in one. These are very useful in its roles, the armor theme of Axis is poor now.

Armor skirts are no use if TD scale/have ability to completely ignore it.
Armor skirts are no use if med tank spam can compleletly ignore the 'rear'
The 2 sides of medal are no longer balance imo.

Like a suggestion made, to restore vet armor skirts rear to 120, at least it stops max range shots from med tanks.

I think Axis speed is ok, but at least a moving accuracy vet, since the need to dive in and out against TD is important now.

If I understand you correctly, you think the base armor of Axis tanks is generally fine while the armor vet bonus is either not large enough or the Allied pen bonus is too large.
The thing is: Why should Axis tanks become better "tanks" (= eat more shots) while Allied TDs should not become better TDs? Not sure about the vet bonus percentages though.
For game balance reasons, I think a vetted Panther should be semi-reliably penned by a medium tank, so that a Panther can't steamroll the enemy if the enemy lost his TD (and it's relatively easy to outplay a single AT gut). Also, all TDs must be punished for being flanked, even by smaller tanks.
Also, running a TD into a TD should not be efficient for either side. TDs are best countered by AT guns.


To the StuG discussion:
Why not give it Blitzkrieg with vet or T4?
The problem currently is that the Stug gets easily wiped and that it does not quite have the mobility it needs to find rear shots at heavily armored vehicles. Blitzkrieg would help with both of that.

If I understand you correctly, you think the base armor of Axis tanks is generally fine while the armor vet bonus is either not large enough or the Allied pen bonus is too large.
The thing is: Why should Axis tanks become better "tanks" (= eat more shots) while Allied TDs should not become better TDs? Not sure about the vet bonus percentages though.
For game balance reasons, I think a vetted Panther should be semi-reliably penned by a medium tank, so that a Panther can't steamroll the enemy if the enemy lost his TD (and it's relatively easy to outplay a single AT gut). Also, all TDs must be punished for being flanked, even by smaller tanks.
Also, running a TD into a TD should not be efficient for either side. TDs are best countered by AT guns.


To the StuG discussion:
Why not give it Blitzkrieg with vet or T4?
The problem currently is that the Stug gets easily wiped and that it does not quite have the mobility it needs to find rear shots at heavily armored vehicles. Blitzkrieg would help with both of that.

Let me explain this in numbers:

A Su-85 firing on Panther at max range:
chance to penetrate 220/260 = 85%
chance to hit 24*0.04 = 96%
Chance to do damage (hit and penetrate) 85*96= 82%

A Su-85 vet 2 firing on vet 2 Panther at max range:
chance to penetrate 286/286 = 100%
chance to hit 24*0.052 = 100%
Chance to do damage (hit and penetrate) 100*100= 100%

And keep in mind that Panther vet slower.

That means that balance relationship these units have at in vet 0 is disrupted at vet 2, for no good reason.

Generally speaking the armor bonus most Axis units get has lost most of its value due to the penetration values allied TD get. Same goes for target size since many of them also get accuracy bonuses.

Allied TD seem to overperform especially at range 60 with the problem increasing with veterancy.

It seems as most units seem to be balanced only at vet 1 and their balanced in other vet levels has not been checked.

Imo a veterancy overhaul with vet bonuses and abilities best suited for units is long long overdue.