StuG and JPIV Penetration

asking for stug pen buff....
*su-76 it's free real estate*

Stug still can support your (real tank) against allied heavy with the stun shot.
just like stuart.

Jagdpanzer I am not too sure of its penetration stats but from what I have encountered, has worse penetration than Panther.

Jagdpanzer has the exact same barrel as Panther and penetrates less which is wierd. It should have the same penetration stats. Just saying. Does not make sense to make a duplicate worse than the other.

Stug needs maybe an ability to increase penetration. Its current Stun ability being derelict/useless stun for 1-2 seconds, dealing 80 damage and for what. It needs some ability that serves a purpose. That is what it needs or a change.

Maybe a HE shell for STUG would be interesting. Just saying!

StuG definitely shouldn't get a penetration increase because it'd be way too cost effective if it could take on heavies. It's a medium tank killer and it shouldn't be anything more for how cheap it is. Ostheer has the Pak 40s that can quite reliably hold back heavies anyway.

The Jagdpanzer IV is fine imo, OKW doesn't have any trouble transitioning into a Panther because they have the tier up anyway. They can also get doctrinal HEAT to counter doctrinal heavies. And the Jagdpanzer IV has really good ROF and veterancy on top of 60 range to make it somewhat decent against heavies anyway.

But does either faction need a dedicated medium tank killer when their own mediums already have the edge?

Between them the Panzer IV and Panther cover everything you'd want a tank to do. The Panzer IV handles infantry and can tackle every vehicle under 110 FU. The Panther has weaker but not neglible AI and can handle a little over its weight in everything else.

The StuG and JPIV just seem, well, redundant. I could see them as cheaper alternatives to the Panther that lack the mobility, durability, turret and anti-infantry capability, but they need penetration for that.

They're not bad in their current state, but they are redundant. If you removed them from the faction it wouldn't make much of a difference.

In isolation maybe. You still will lose 1 stug, not a worse case.

Firefly has 8,25 seconds reload.
Firefly needs 3 shots to kill a StuG. That's 16,5 seconds from the first shot.
Even if Firefly manages to hit both Tullips (2x 120 dmg) it needs 8,25 from the first shot seconds to kill a StuG.

StuG has 5,25 seconds reload on average.
StuG needs 4 shots to kill a Firefly. Two StuGs kill a Firefly in 5,25 seconds from their first shots.


This is not accounting for misses, even though StuGs have the advantage here with 20 (after the patch 18) target size vs the Firefly's 23 target size (both have roughly the same accuracy).
This is also not accounting the StuGs using their TWP, with which they can stun the Firefly for 5 seconds per shot.
Even if the Firefly initially fires from 60 range, the 3 seconds difference in TOK is good enough for the StuGs to close 10 distance and win without losses.

So how exactly is losing one StuG a guarantee here?

...
So how exactly is losing one StuG a guarantee here?

Because AFK fights do not count (?

They're not bad in their current state, but they are redundant. If you removed them from the faction it wouldn't make much of a difference.

I don't agree. In the bigger picture the StuG is there to handle mediums that the Panzer IV can't handle (Sherman, Sherman premiums, T-34-85) or it's a way to out-resourcemanage your oponent by nullifying/destroying a more expensive vehicle with a cheaper vehicle (or just to save your ass when you're behind on resources). At least it will be after the patch, when it's a bit more reliable versus mediums (buffed traverse will stop it from being run around so easily).

The Jagdpanzer IV is, besides anti-medium, OKW's answer to tank destroyers. At vet 2 (800hp) it will out DPS all Allied TDs and higher veterancy makes it even more deadly. Camouflage too. The Panther isn't overly reliable against TDs. Again it will also handle mediums as well as the Panther can, but for a cheaper price. Such resource advantages will matter in high ranked games. I guess I don't have to mention how montrous it becomes with HEAT shells which solve its penetration issues (and extra damage on top).

Firefly has 8,25 seconds reload.
Firefly needs 3 shots to kill a StuG. That's 16,5 seconds from the first shot.
Even if Firefly manages to hit both Tullips (2x 120 dmg) it needs 8,25 from the first shot seconds to kill a StuG.

StuG has 5,25 seconds reload on average.
StuG needs 4 shots to kill a Firefly. Two StuGs kill a Firefly in 5,25 seconds from their first shots.


This is not accounting for misses, even though StuGs have the advantage here with 20 (after the patch 18) target size vs the Firefly's 23 target size (both have roughly the same accuracy).
This is also not accounting the StuGs using their TWP, with which they can stun the Firefly for 5 seconds per shot.
Even if the Firefly initially fires from 60 range, the 3 seconds difference in TOK is good enough for the StuGs to close 10 distance and win without losses.

So how exactly is losing one StuG a guarantee here?

Check your stats for the same distance the claim (both have roughly the same accuracy) is simply false.

In addition you seem to complete ignore Tulips which allow FF to kill a stug with 1 reload.

Check your stats for the same distance the claim (both have roughly the same accuracy) is simply false.

In addition you seem to complete ignore Tulips which allow FF to kill a stug with 1 reload.

Ironic how you accused me of arguing just for the sake of proving you wrong in the other thread.

Accuracy Firefly 0.06/0.05/0.04 at 0/45/60
Accuracy StuG 0.06/0.05/0.04 at 0/25/50

Assuming both are firing at 50 range, Firefly against TZ 20 and StuG against TZ 23, they have about equal accuracy slightly in favor of the StuG unless I'm wrong. More so when the StuG becomes 18 target size after the patch.


About the Tullips, I suggest you re-read the third sentence in my post.

Because AFK fights do not count (?

Good micro doesn't make your tanks shoot faster.

Two StuGs can easily inflict lethal damage on a Firefly faster than the Firefly can inflict lethal damage on one StuG. If you're only fighting mediums, StuGs are good units.

Thing is, a pair of Panzer IVs will also kill that Firefly. They don't even run the risk of being three-shot because they have 640 health.

Then, when the opponent calls in a heavy, those Panzer IVs retain their anti-infantry capability and have the option to flank it. The StuG pair becomes practically useless.

Why would you ever risk investing in StuGs when the Panzer IV is almost as good and vastly more versatile?

Ironic how you accused me of arguing just for the sake of proving you wrong in the other thread.

I politely suggested you check you stats I did argue for the sake of proving you wrong.

Accuracy Firefly 0.06/0.05/0.04 at 0/45/60
Accuracy StuG 0.06/0.05/0.04 at 0/25/50

Assuming both are firing at 50 range, Firefly against TZ 20 and StuG against TZ 23, they have about equal accuracy slightly in favor of the StuG unless I'm wrong. More so when the StuG becomes 18 target size after the patch.


About the Tullips, I suggest you re-read the third sentence in my post.

FF has 0.055 accuracy at range 45
Stug has 0.04 accuracy at range 50

In other words the FF has at range 45 the accuracy the stug has at range 12.5. I am sure we can agree that they do not have "roughly the same accuracy".

Good micro doesn't make your tanks shoot faster.

Two StuGs can easily inflict lethal damage on a Firefly faster than the Firefly can inflict lethal damage on one StuG. If you're only fighting mediums, StuGs are good units.

Thing is, a pair of Panzer IVs will also kill that Firefly. They don't even run the risk of being three-shot because they have 640 health.

Then, when the opponent calls in a heavy, those Panzer IVs retain their anti-infantry capability and have the option to flank it. The StuG pair becomes practically useless.

Why would you ever risk investing in StuGs when the Panzer IV is almost as good and vastly more versatile?

You might not chose to so to speak. If you have a Rocky early game it's nice to know you have stugs to fall back on and they preform pretty well.

Perhaps having battle phase 3 unlock and upgrade that gives stugs +5 range might be a route to allowing them as a defensive choice that can transition and scale a bit better? A 60mu upgrade maybe so it's attainable but still not easy to spam. Good for 1 maybe 2 kinda deal?

I really feel like the battle phase system is sorely under utilized as a means to allow units better scaling..

Jagdpanzer I am not too sure of its penetration stats but from what I have encountered, has worse penetration than Panther.

Jagdpanzer has the exact same barrel as Panther and penetrates less which is wierd. It should have the same penetration stats. Just saying. Does not make sense to make a duplicate worse than the other.

Stug needs maybe an ability to increase penetration. Its current Stun ability being derelict/useless stun for 1-2 seconds, dealing 80 damage and for what. It needs some ability that serves a purpose. That is what it needs or a change.

Maybe a HE shell for STUG would be interesting. Just saying!

Or maybe just increase the range or penetration on veterancy? The days and theme of vetted armor skirts for axis tanks, are long gone and not enough.

I politely suggested you check you stats I did argue for the sake of proving you wrong.


FF has 0.055 accuracy at range 45
Stug has 0.04 accuracy at range 50

In other words the FF has at range 45 the accuracy the stug has at range 12.5. I am sure we can agree that they do not have "roughly the same accuracy".

? the Firefly has 0.05 accuracy at range 45 and not 0.055?

Sherman Firefly
To preserve the Firefly's role as a long range, accurate tank destroyer while making the vehicle less potent at hunting down and killing enemy tanks on the move, the following changes have been made:
- Accuracy from 0.08/0.07/0.05 to 0.06/0.05/0.04

I don't agree. In the bigger picture the StuG is there to handle mediums that the Panzer IV can't handle (Sherman, Sherman premiums, T-34-85) or it's a way to out-resourcemanage your oponent by nullifying/destroying a more expensive vehicle with a cheaper vehicle (or just to save your ass when you're behind on resources). At least it will be after the patch, when it's a bit more reliable versus mediums (buffed traverse will stop it from being run around so easily).

I think the StuG/Panther interplay is balanced well for medium tanks.

The StuG will do a little better than the Panzer IV against mediums for 30 FU less. It can also tackle premium mediums that beat the Panzer IV, like the upgunned Shermans and the T-34/85. Plus it's cheap: you can get one out fast when you need it.

The Panther has the damage output of one StuG for the cost of two, but it's slathered in armour, has twice the health, has weak but not negligible AI performance and very importantly has a turret.

A Panther does to mediums what a Panzer IV does to T-70s. Two StuGs put out more damage, but they can't hunt tanks the way a Panther can.

There are benefits to both. The StuG holds its own against more expensive units. The Panther butchers anything cheaper than it that isn't a dedicated tank destroyer, and even then it has the edge within 50 range.



Then the heavies rock up and, as usual, ruin everything.

The StuGs do approximately fuck all to the heavy: they can't penetrate it from the front and as casemates they can't flank it. I've thrown three of the things at one once and watched them struggle to do half damage at point blank before they all get killed.

The Panther can penetrate heavies from the front and flank them if it wants.

Unless heavies are off the table, why would you ever risk StuGs?

These two are meant to engage medium and premium medium armor.

For heavy armor you have Panther.

You might not chose to so to speak. If you have a Rocky early game it's nice to know you have stugs to fall back on and they preform pretty well.

Perhaps having battle phase 3 unlock and upgrade that gives stugs +5 range might be a route to allowing them as a defensive choice that can transition and scale a bit better? A 60mu upgrade maybe so it's attainable but still not easy to spam. Good for 1 maybe 2 kinda deal?

I really feel like the battle phase system is sorely under utilized as a means to allow units better scaling..

I do agree on the Battle Phase being under utilized as a means to allow units better scaling. Battle Phase should emphasise more since it is an upgrade purchase which takes time to acquire. Nothing comes out of it except the ability to build the next tier building which is a bit dull system.

The system as it is if anything could be like the Soviets which is more or less as it currently is but more time consuming. Currently there is no need to really have this battle-phase system if there is nothing more to emphasise rather the ability to build just a building. Now it just needs upgrade to build base after another which is unfortunate. Since it conveys of little significance.

? the Firefly has 0.05 accuracy at range 45 and not 0.055?

You are forgetting the commander bonus. For all practical reason the accuracy of the FF should be considered with 1.1 bonus.

Actually FF has one of the longest mid ranges in the game even longer than the JT and it even get an accuracy bonus with vet. That make one the most accurate units in game being able to 1 shoot kubels with nearly 100% at max range.

Stug is simply not that accurate.

These two are meant to engage medium and premium medium armor.

For heavy armor you have Panther.

My point is 'dedicated casemate medium killer' is a completely redundant role.

The Panzer IV, a generalist, can already take on standard mediums without sacrificing AI. It's also better against heavies because it has the ability to flank them.

The Panther will clobber anything under 185 FU and can take on heavies.

Unless heavies are off the table, why would you ever risk StuGs?

It's a fundamental flaw of Ostheer's design. It's not a terrible flaw, but a noticeable nontheless.

The Allies all have one tank tech tier with a tank destroyer that can engage all targets with decent to good efficiency. Ostheer has two tiers and two vehicles, so if their T3 runs into any kind of heavies trouble they not only have to transition into a much more expensive TD, they also have to get extra tech. Even though both their TDs are effective fighters, Ostheer still has a strategic timing and resources disadvantage.

It's been mostly fixed with recent changes to Ostheer's teching costs that made a transition into T4 less painful, but yes there is still the problem that Ostheer T3 is something of a risk because when a KV-1 or anything bigger shows up, their T3 vehicles won't cut it and it takes very long to get a Panther.

I don't think there's much that can be done about that, without making the StuG too cost efficient.

My point is 'dedicated casemate medium killer' is a completely redundant role.

The Panzer IV, a generalist, can already take on standard mediums without sacrificing AI. It's also better against heavies because it has the ability to flank them.

The Panther will clobber anything under 185 FU and can take on heavies.

P4 isn't going to be dealing great against 34/85, easy8 or dozer blade shermans.
Panther isn't going to be cost efficient and will be easily outspammed.
StuG/JP4 will stand up to the task well, stugs especially.