StuG and JPIV Penetration

The StuG and JPIV have pretty low penetration values for dedicated tank destroyers. They're an improvement over Panzer IV rounds, but they don't cut it against heavies.

As a result, pretty much every game where a heavy tank is on the table OST/OKW goes for a 185 FU Panther.

Would it be an overall improvement if the StuG and JPIV got some sort of penetration buff (either a flat buff or through a timed ability like the Jackson) to allow them to handle heavies? It'd create a second option: go for a cheaper dedicated AT vehicle that requires support.

Does this open up more interesting builds, or do people prefer always fighting/using Panthers?

TD are worthless for axis because the infantry can't spot and support for them.

Imagine 4 squads of either flavor of grens charging into 4 double bar rifles to spot the jackson for that last hit. It just doesn't happen. The grens will get wiped, or at the minimum you'll get snared and lose the TD.

4 double-bar rifle squads charging into 4 gren squads to get LOS for that last hit on the tiger though? Happens all the time.

The StuG and JPIV have pretty low penetration values for dedicated tank destroyers. They're an improvement over Panzer IV rounds, but they don't cut it against heavies.

As a result, pretty much every game where a heavy tank is on the table OST/OKW goes for a 185 FU Panther.

Would it be an overall improvement if the StuG and JPIV got some sort of penetration buff (either a flat buff or through a timed ability like the Jackson) to allow them to handle heavies? It'd create a second option: go for a cheaper dedicated AT vehicle that requires support.

Does this open up more interesting builds, or do people prefer always fighting/using Panthers?

Imo StuG and JP IV should exchange armor and armor vet bonus for for something more useful like penetration bonuses .

StuG definitely shouldn't get a penetration increase because it'd be way too cost effective if it could take on heavies. It's a medium tank killer and it shouldn't be anything more for how cheap it is. Ostheer has the Pak 40s that can quite reliably hold back heavies anyway.

The Jagdpanzer IV is fine imo, OKW doesn't have any trouble transitioning into a Panther because they have the tier up anyway. They can also get doctrinal HEAT to counter doctrinal heavies. And the Jagdpanzer IV has really good ROF and veterancy on top of 60 range to make it somewhat decent against heavies anyway.

StuG and JP are a testimony too how much Brits changed the game. Axis usually did not face heavy armor, because standard tanks of Soviets and USF are relatively light. So these two units worked well against all allied tanks, and Panther was only needed as a heavy brawler and break through unit.
For allies, only Brits can field heavily armored tanks which makes team games more difficult since your JPIV might work or not, depending which enemy your currently face in that moment.
On the other hand, a JP4 has a decent 70% pen-rate against a churchill and drops to about 50 % vs real heavy tanks like pershing and IS-2. If your enemy goes for a ~230 fuel unit, I think it should be alright to build a 185 fuel Panther.
StuG and JP4 currently have the role of fighting off mediums (and the JP4 also can fight off other TDs), which they are actually pretty good at. I think the split is fine, since Axis are the only two factions who two TDs. Specializing them in one cheaper alternative fighting off mediums and the other costly alternative fighting off heavies is a good thing.

Whatever in the later game Axis always have Panther,and StuG is good at they timing，doesn't need more change
I think JP4 doesn't need more change,just move to OKW T0,unlock after SPHQ deployed，so JP4 can be very good Plan B when OKW lost SPHQ，whatever change to JP4，it in same building with Panther,OKW will always chose Panther

They can also get doctrinal HEAT to counter doctrinal heavies.

A doctrinal answer inorder to fight a specific tank class on a tank destroyer seems pretty stupid. That's like taking the su85 and dropping its far pen to 150 and saying "just use ram + IL2, which is perfectly viable, just doctrinal vs non.

ontopic: HEAT rounds in general are super strong, maybe even OP, but I think as long as they're in the game the way they are people will always argue to use them over ever buffing the casemate TDs for axis. Furthermore, SOMEONE FIX THE JP4 VETERANCY.

A doctrinal answer inorder to fight a specific tank class on a tank destroyer seems pretty stupid. That's like taking the su85 and dropping its far pen to 150 and saying "just use ram + IL2, which is perfectly viable, just doctrinal vs non.

ontopic: HEAT rounds in general are super strong, maybe even OP, but I think as long as they're in the game the way they are people will always argue to use them over ever buffing the casemate TDs for axis. Furthermore, SOMEONE FIX THE JP4 VETERANCY.

Except it wouldn't. Because the panther exists it would be like trying to have the su76 preform all the Soviet AT duty and saying use mark target.

The JP4 is a great unit, it's just nor designed for heavy armour. Okw have 3 AT vehicles, gotta try and avoid overlap. Jp4 can return fire on allied TDs which makes it unique, make it also reliable against heavy armour and we have successfully recreated the allied TD problem except there ARE alternatives being cut off instead of being omnipotent due to lack of options.

Except it wouldn't. Because the panther exists it would be like trying to have the su76 preform all the Soviet AT duty and saying use mark target.

The JP4 is a great unit, it's just nor designed for heavy armour. Okw have 3 AT vehicles, gotta try and avoid overlap. Jp4 can return fire on allied TDs which makes it unique, make it also reliable against heavy armour and we have successfully recreated the allied TD problem except there ARE alternatives being cut off instead of being omnipotent due to lack of options.

I've always hated the "use a panther arguement". The panther has the penetration yes, but it doesn't have the RoF to take down 1400HP worth of churchill or even the IS2 without support showing up from your opponet. The panther and jp4 are both great vs mediums, but neither are stellar vs heavies. If we have the diversity to make both, why not specialize them. Taking down IS2s frontally is even a challenge for a panther given RNG is semi reasonable. The jp4 also wouldn't struggle as much if its veterancy was fixed and the IS2 armor was lowered.

JP4 is very fine, don't forget predator cloak too!. Stug is sad to be honest.

To get effective stug, you need 2, and that takes up 180 fu. Even then, they go down to late tanks like fly at 50 range. I have no idea the last stug change gave it slightly better AI gun but nerf the rof and ap iirc. Like really bad bad decisions...

I've always hated the "use a panther arguement". The panther has the penetration yes, but it doesn't have the RoF to take down 1400HP worth of churchill or even the IS2 without support showing up from your opponet. The panther and jp4 are both great vs mediums, but neither are stellar vs heavies. If we have the diversity to make both, why not specialize them. Taking down IS2s frontally is even a challenge for a panther given RNG is semi reasonable. The jp4 also wouldn't struggle as much if its veterancy was fixed and the IS2 armor was lowered.

The use panther argument is there because that's literally why the panther is there.. To fight heavy armour. Any issues with it fighting a literal meatshield lies with the balance of the meat shield (side note, if the panther didn't struggle to grind down 1400hp designed solely to be a pain in the ass to grind down what would be the point? What's more,the panther would then absolutely obliterate anything with less than 1400hp far too easily. That would create a broken mirror to allied TDs being buffed to laugh at the KT and ignoring the balance implications of units with less armour than the KT.

Keep in mind the is-2 was designed in game as the only unit that can really fight the panther, and is limited to 1 only. It's a better tank due to restrictions. It wasn't always.

The JP4 isn't designed to tackle the most armored unit in the allied lineup. If it was capable of doing that we alwould see the same thing we have with allied TDs which is BAD design, not better design. The JP4 excels at munching mediums and can actually fire back at allied TDs. That's its job, not heavy armour.

If we can move some power away from allied infantry and TDs so that mediums see more play we will see an up shoot in viability to no panther options. The issue is that allied infantry provide enough AI that there is no need to get a medium when you can get an omnipotent TD that will ensure that enemy armour can't level the playing field.

To get effective stug, you need 2, and that takes up 180 fu. Even then, they go down to late tanks like fly at 50 range. I have no idea the last stug change gave it slightly better AI gun but nerf the rof and ap iirc. Like really bad bad decisions...

Because a 90 fuel tier 3 vehicle isn't meant to stand up to a 155 fuel late game tank destroyer?

Also the StuG changes didn't change the gun's AI, they buffed its MG upgrade. The ROF was nerfed because StuGs were too cost efficient. Same for the TWP.

.

If we can move some power away from allied infantry and TDs so that mediums see more play we will see an up shoot in viability to no panther options. The issue is that allied infantry provide enough AI that there is no need to get a medium when you can get an omnipotent TD that will ensure that enemy armour can't level the playing field.

This is the problem^ that and the panther being nondoc. But you'll never see a change to things like this.

But double stug is 180 fuel, and it still suck against 60 range Td no?

Is there a need to buff its mg, felt like doing for the sake of giving some buff 'love', whille nerfing its core use...

And is stug too cost efficient even with rof restore? 90 fuel 10 popcap, larger target size than su85, no penetration scaling..

Usf atg have high rof to compensate its poorer pen, but why not stug?

This is the problem^ that and the panther being nondoc. But you'll never see a change to things like this.

And panther isnt a strong td for its costs, just a generalist tank winning over medium, and often you are left with 160-320 hp, just hope there is not AT behind or snare or another medium tank follow up.

Usf can go triple E8 and really punish 2 panthers as easily. Yet Panthers will get shut down by Jackson ATG inside the Fow. Or throw in IS2/KV/SU85 if Soviet. Or Churchill/Firefly.

Nice topic to discuss, glad you opened it.

I think this might help, sorry for being self referenced
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IMHO all tank tiers are way too rushed in the current gameplay, there is little window for mediums to cause serious damage before heavy TDs come in play. I would really like something like 50% to all fuel cost for heavier tanks. Or their teching. That will make stugs and jp4 resource efficient TDs instead of expensive premium mediums.

Other thing, some say that jp4 is good, but it's not good enough to be fair, it when paired with cmd Panther is respectable but it is never used solo with inf support, there must be some reason for that.

But double stug is 180 fuel, and it still suck against 60 range Td no?

But two StuGs will completely annihilate a single Firefly. Worst case you lose one Stug and it's still a good trade.

Jp4 is good enough but takes up popcap. Because okw always need to build at least a stuka to clear allies infantry camp. Maybe make jp4 14 popcap, which is double rak.

It is since allies infantry and td are more cost efficient, as axis 2v2 player, you always get overwhelmed late game.

But two StuGs will completely annihilate a single Firefly. Worst case you lose one Stug and it's still a good trade.

In isolation maybe. You still will lose 1 stug, not a worse case.
But in game, not likely. Diving in with Stugs is going to be tough against supportive cover, you will lose all stugs, just depend how much tanks you get.

Firefly play profile is defensive, not easy to get an opening. Of course with its slower turret, stugs are ok. But for other tanks, stug is a terrible.