M36 Jackson

This game cannot be asymmetrical so no point of comparing all of this when the general theme/purpose of building a Panther or Jackson is to hard counter other tanks which both excel in (especially against mediums).

Unit performance is related to cost. M36 can counter more expensive take cheaper than the Pnather thus it is more expensive.

Jackson is one size fits all unit and its by choice of design of the US faction. You cannot nerf Jackson without nerfing the entire faction's AT capability for late game. Dont even say Riflemen with Zooks and AT guns are viable late game with Panzerwer, Stuka and Arty abilities are rampant.

Don't bring USF design into design. M36 was original designed as glass cannon and now its proper cannon.

Yes you cam nerf the M36 or redesign with nerfing the Faction. It would actually make room for the very good USF tanks to shine.

In my oppinion, yes.

lul

Check the price difference between PzIV and M36 and Panther and Sherman.

Now check the range difference.

Finally if in your pinion Panther is causing problem lets mirror it's stat, timing , tech cost to M36 and see how it goes.

One P4 does significantly better against one jackson in actual combat situations than one sherman against one panther. There's literally no way for a single sherman to take out a single panther unless the opponent is literally afk and just lets you circle it to death without rotating their panther. It will hardly ever pen the front and has 2/3 the health than the panther. Whereas P4 will win in a straight DPS battle against a jackson if it's in range. But sure, keep comparing the 90 mp, 50-ish fuel discrepancy.

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One P4 does significantly better against one jackson in actual combat situations than one sherman against one panther. There's literally no way for a single sherman to take out a single panther unless the opponent is literally afk and just lets you circle it to death without rotating their panther. It will hardly ever pen the front and has 2/3 the health than the panther. Whereas P4 will win in a straight DPS battle against a jackson if it's in range. But sure, keep comparing the 90 mp, 50-ish fuel discrepancy.

If you opponent has a single Panther you should have more than single Sherman...else you are simply doing something wrong.

If you have left you M36 alone vs a PzIV and allow it to come into range again you are doing something wrong.

Bottom line remains M36 if far more cost efficient counter to a medium tank than Panther.

If you opponent has a single Panther you should have more than single Sherman...else you are simply doing something wrong.

Unless its OKW.
There will be at least 2-3 minutes when sherman will be alone vs panther.

Bottom line remains M36 if far more cost efficient counter to a medium tank than Panther.

Its easier to get it, its easier to lose it and its price reflects that.
And sure, M36 is as cost efficient against meds as JP4 or StuG.

If you're getting panther instead of JP4/stug, you're anticipating heavy, not cost effectively countering meds.

Unless its OKW.
There will be at least 2-3 minutes when sherman will be alone vs panther.

You mean like how there will be 2-3 minutes when the Sherman will be alone and will have a field day?

There is what, a 65 fuel difference between a Sherman arrives and when the panther arrives for it to be unopposed, turn on HE rounds and make value.

You mean like how there will be 2-3 minutes when the Sherman will be alone and will have a field day?

There is what, a 65 fuel difference between a Sherman arrives and when the panther arrives for it to be unopposed, turn on HE rounds and make value.

I wouldn't call being chased away by puma exactly a "field day".
That Stuart/M15/Greyhound won't kill itself(unless you're facing meh player).

I wouldn't call being chased away by puma exactly a "field day".
That Stuart/M15/Greyhound won't kill itself(unless you're facing meh player).

If a puma is on the field, your premise of a single Sherman facing Panther for 2-3 minutes is defiantly wrong.

I can already hear the endless REEEEEE from axis players who now actually have to watch for flanks and can't overextend and still escape with panther.

Don't know as others, but I am perfectly fine with halving panthers armor, cutting a third of its current health, giving it 10 more range and lowering its cost.

Uh whenever I fight panthers it instantly takes a 60 range shot, then gets snared, and then I slowly kill it at 60 range. It can’t blitz while snared. My problem while playing USF is that my infantry can’t deal with OKW infantry, but since it already shits all over Wher infantry they can’t buff it

Since you mention it, pzwerfer hard counter mortar and pak howie and Infantry...

A single pzwerfer is not enough, rarely you didnt mention it, and 2 pzwerfers leave a gap too big to fill that a single M36 can use to dive, destroy your "hardcounter" and come back with a couple scratches. Nice theorycrafting there, but we are discussing real game clashes

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On the other side a scott isn't going to delete or force retreat a bunch of unit in one volley. It works differently...

I am so glad it cant, i mean it would be buttfuck OP if it could, but why is that even a fact? I cant even tell the argument, scotts being OPAF is not the main topic discussed, it works differently because it destroys static infantry and avoids damage with mobility.

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I excluded doctrines because each faction have doctrines with valuable assets, you can't tell me to just us Priest if in front of it there is a Tiger Ace.

Fine you say that, since OST only relies on a doctrinal desition to acomodate for a USF match, but USF "dont have stock rocket arty" looks overshadowed by the "only a doctrinal unit can save you from loosing" sentence.
I wont judge people not liking axis, but innacurate facts are just way out of this level of discussion.

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If you look into Stock Options, Oshteer is by design more equiped than USF who rely on crutch units to stay relevant. Again I'm not saying this is the perfect situation but that's what we have today.

OST is a defensive all arounder, OKW is a single trick pony circus, USF is a constant offensive faction and offensive defense design, fewer variety on units for big impact (roflman,M36,pershing), a bunch of mediocre units for adaptative attack (tanks, team weapons) (OST is the other way around if you pay attention)

And btw you're probably one patch late, Pzgrenadiers are better than Riflemen now. The OP riflemen meme is over.

I really dont regret missing the "better/worse as a fact when its really an anecdotical opinion" excuse class. Pzgren are still more expensive, not AI upgradable, worse in lategame because of 4 man aaaaaand not having snares or being worth to amass. Nope, pzgrens are not better at being riflemen at all.
OP riflemen is over because OP doctrinal alternative openings have appeared, but that is not even the issue, riflemen can be OP as long as they want, but OP inf+snares and OP tank means no unit (excluding indirect fire) cant stand a chance.

OKW at the moment have also access to everything, from indirect fire to stock Heavy tank. Replace the pzwerfer with the Stuka behind the panther and here you go. And if you have trouble finding the USF unit in the fog of war, just build a IRHT.
And Ober > Riflemen.

When obers can be trained at the same timestamp than riflemen, only cost will balance its performance, but since obers are so delayed only a retard USF with vet0 riflemen can be beaten by obers in the current patch.
I sincerely love people using a well played enemy strategy as an excuse of the need of OP units. Its a fact if the enemy has played better than you, you loose. Hard to swallow pills there.
Next time if your enemy has a panther+pzwerfer and you only have riflemen+team weapons, something wrong has happened and it was not because axis are OP.

So yes there is a margin in which the Jackson evolve above other faction and that's probably the only one USF has at the moment.

Nope, proved you wrong in all the prior statements, i wont agree about jacksOPns being like that and by such a big margin.
M10 should be stock and M36 doctrinal is my final word.

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M10 should be stock and M36 doctrinal is my final word.

That wouldn't work. "Ideal" world would be M10 non doctrinal and Jackson transformed into a glasscannon or FF clone.

At the end of the day, what we will see is just a Jackson cost increase and tangential nerfs (say you could slightly decrease turret rotation and/or lower the armor so it can't deflect anything even at max range).

OP riflemen is over because OP doctrinal alternative openings have appeared, but that is not even the issue, riflemen can be OP as long as they want, but OP inf+snares and OP tank means no unit (excluding indirect fire) cant stand a chance.

This is a double negative, btw.

That wouldn't work. "Ideal" world would be M10 non doctrinal and Jackson transformed into a glasscannon or FF clone.

At the end of the day, what we will see is just a Jackson cost increase and tangential nerfs (say you could slightly decrease turret rotation and/or lower the armor so it can't deflect anything even at max range).

I mean... It COULD work..
A cheap say...buffed to 55 range TD that needs to flank or use HVAP on heavier armour would be more to the tune of USF than a 60 range slugger
The Jacky boi could then be returned to its glass cannon role (JUST reduce health, nothing more) as a doctrinal alternative.
Might see some sherman/m10 combos and other assets brought to bare. The only issue would be finding the right cost/performance ratio.

Would also open up some avenues for OKW vehicle play too with the JP4 being harder to return fire on and the puma zipping around
Ost stug would also be more viable....

Idk. It would be worth trying in a mod for sure.

M10 should be stock and M36 doctrinal is my final word.

You could have started with this, that would have been enough to explain yourself. So here we are, USF shouldn't be able to fight anything above pz4. That's your words.
At the end your words sound more like a rant to me than an analysis of the situation: USF need to be nerfed, Axis tools are all bad or weak etc...

I mean... It COULD work..
A cheap say...buffed to 55 range TD that needs to flank or use HVAP on heavier armour would be more to the tune of USF than a 60 range slugger
Idk. It would be worth trying in a mod for sure.

If flanking was an option in this game, don't you think people would actually been flanking with their jackson or M10 or T34 or Cromwell or sherman? I mean, if already maps were allowing flanking that would be great but the game design itself punish flanking at the moment, this plus the lack of side armor making flanking like diving in some occasion.
Hell, the game is already more friendly with diving than flanking, some factions have tanks with armor, almost secure to pen, health, smoke and warspeed/blitzkrieg to secure a kill and still having good chances to retreat alive.
And you want to force super squeezy tanks to flank heavy with no armor, no smoke and no pen (need to pay extra munition to be allowed to pen). Well at least M10s have speed god save us!!

Imagine calling for m36 nerfs in a patch where everygame has turned into 15min tiger rush

I would go the otherway personally and buff FF to m36 price point

M10 should be stock and M36 doctrinal is my final word.

I agree. of course wolverine must lose ap rounds and i think scott should be doctinal too then u can add pack howi to major tech.

Or imagine okw without nobrain panther- hopeless faction only with 60 range tank destroyer and non doc heavy tank sounds really bad.

Anyway
U said that was your last word i hope its true

If u guys want to fix jackson then make it 175 fuel 900hp 260 armor with good mg and nitro plis then u will see how easy is to play as usf especially in teamgame

M10 should be stock and M36 doctrinal is my final word.

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Have u ever played USF?

OMG

M10 lack luster and stupid to replace M36 for USF. What will USF use against Panther spam?

M10 lack luster and stupid to replace M36 for USF. What will USF use against Panther spam?

I agree with M10 not being as good as they should be. A pz4 can give it a big fight and we are not forgetting M10 are TDs. A reasonable buff to M10 and making them stock sound very interesting indeed.
A panther spam is rare in 1v1 and involves a lot of time, a lot of time that must have been used to force the other player out of his comfort zone.

I would like to fork the 2panthers vs 1 M36 topic, but its true, M36 cant stand a chance there, so is a panther vs 2 jacksons. The problem with number vs quality is being offset there by the amount of hits a tank is able to take. If M36 become glasscannons they will suffer from double tank assaults, that an axis can pull off with a Pz4 and a stug. If M36 become glasscannon they will loose against panthers and thats not ideal too. If panthers receive a nerf altogether with M36 IMO could solve many other issues on the TD department.

Imagine calling for m36 nerfs in a patch where everygame has turned into 15min tiger rush

I would go the otherway personally and buff FF to m36 price point

Powercreep, is that you?
Of course is better to buff the crap out of the allied TD to stratosphere because M36 are not OP, its funnier that way, axis lost the ww2 they must also loose every game.

You could have started with this, that would have been enough to explain yourself. So here we are, USF shouldn't be able to fight anything above pz4. That's your words.

I dare you to find a single quote of me saying that. Otherwise dont put words in my mouth since you dont understand what i said.
One thing is to be able to fight off Pz4 and above and other one is to displace, seek and destroy for no reason that "it must be that way" excuse.

At the end your words sound more like a rant to me than an analysis of the situation: USF need to be nerfed, Axis tools are all bad or weak etc...

I never said that and you sound like a ranting person now. But now i wont waste my time explaining myself anymore.

If flanking was an option in this game, don't you think people would actually been flanking with their jackson or M10 or T34 or Cromwell or sherman? I mean, if already maps were allowing flanking that would be great but the game design itself punish flanking at the moment, this plus the lack of side armor making flanking like diving in some occasion.
Hell, the game is already more friendly with diving than flanking, some factions have tanks with armor, almost secure to pen, health, smoke and warspeed/blitzkrieg to secure a kill and still having good chances to retreat alive.

You miss two points and i dont meant to be personal now. First one, the game was intended to find flanking options as a main mechanic, in between patches that mechanic was lost or became too hard to pull, so using the "wouldnt people do the obvious logic" strategy is not an argument, since people dont flank because M36 are able to pen frontally and on the move at the highest stock heavy axis tank (Pnter), why would people do something as complicated as flanking and risking their units when a single straigh shot is good enough and no risk involved? Answer that first and then you will know why woulnt people flank to win tank fights if that werent an option.

And you want to force super squeezy tanks to flank heavy with no armor, no smoke and no pen (need to pay extra munition to be allowed to pen). Well at least M10s have speed god save us!!

Yeah no other USF unit can provide smoke /s only raw powercreep M36 can bring liberty to fascist COH2...
Again simple logic against complex setups are just a bad excuse, if the oponent is ready to fight of any diving tank, DONT DO IT. Not even a single KT is able to withstand a well placed defense. Why then would M36?

Just give usf easy 8's and up the pen by 10-20,nerf the Jackson to fire slowly but always use hvap, and take away the Scott's autofire but buffs its barrage.