M36 Jackson

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 21:33 PMMazianni

Yeah man just have a sherman already bought to provide smoke cover for the seperately purchased TD to be able to flank the axis heavy lol. Why should USF have to jump through so many hurdles just to punish stupid Axis armor dives?

If your opponent has spammed M36 for some reason, why not push with infantry? If he has M8s or, God forbid, somehow M4 Shermans spammed as well, how did you let him have access to so much fuel?

M36s are already not capable of dives because of their weak armor and hp pool. A competent defensive setup of any sort could snare or destroy them unless you have wasted all your MP on bunkers or mp40 stormtroopers or something. M36 are however used to chase down and punish diving Axis tanks, like the Panther, which can otherwise tank, outrun, or deflect Allied AT options.

If M36 is giving you trouble as an offensive weapon, with its limited sight range and endurance, I must question your strategy.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 21:31 PMMr.Flush

Just give usf easy 8's and up the pen by 10-20,nerf the Jackson to fire slowly but always use hvap, and take away the Scott's autofire but buffs its barrage.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 21:47 PMdistrofio

M10 becomes very irrelevant if E8 become stock.
It is also powercreep making E8 stock.

Im sorry but im

The wolverine does not work too well above 1's

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 21:33 PMMazianni

Yeah man just have a sherman already bought to provide smoke cover for the seperately purchased TD to be able to flank the axis heavy lol. Why should USF have to jump through so many hurdles just to punish stupid Axis armor dives?

If your opponent has spammed M36 for some reason, why not push with infantry? If he has M8s or, God forbid, somehow M4 Shermans spammed as well, how did you let him have access to so much fuel?

M36s are already not capable of dives because of their weak armor and hp pool. A competent defensive setup of any sort could snare or destroy them unless you have wasted all your MP on bunkers or mp40 stormtroopers or something. M36 are however used to chase down and punish diving Axis tanks, like the Panther, which can otherwise tank, outrun, or deflect Allied AT options.

If M36 is giving you trouble as an offensive weapon, with its limited sight range and endurance (and zero AI power), I must question your strategy.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 22:04 PMthedarkarmadillo

You don't need to use a sherman. Usf is given at least 3 units for free that can use smoke if you tech grenades. You also have t0 mortar, pak howi and even the Scott as cheaper alternatives.

You are talking both like the Jackson has no support and like it has all the support, it's very confusing (is that the point?) you are also acting as though usf lack AI unless it's a vehicle which is quite untrue. The power of the Jackson allows the usf player to stack their AI power because they know the Jackson will be enough to tackle what ever they face. Therein lies the issue for both balance but also viability and variety of other units. The alternatives would need some buffs of course but the ultimate weapon Jackson needs some nerfs too

Also, Jackson's have the same amount of health as any other non premium medium tank, but ALSO +20 range. Diving doesn't have to be slogging through the enemy rear lines when you can shoot over them. The Jackson has enough durability to get in there for a final shot and get out, I've played this game plenty, I know.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 22:13 PMMazianni

If we are talking about pushes, I highly doubt you're going to be supporting a diving M36 with RE smoke or a mortar smoke round. Maybe a M8, but I personally don't build those and wouldn't think they'd be resiliant enough to push with the M36.

I give the M36 support in these situations when its used defensively, in its own lines, like it is supposed to be, with its good mobility and subpar sight and armor. I assume no support when its pushing, because suddenly it has no spotters or local AI.

I also tend to discount the idea of USF stacking AI more than any other faction considering the M2HB is hot garbage and the pak howi is too vulnerable. Maybe that's my mistake, but I just cant see USF having anything there that other factions wouldn't have, and certainly not with two M36s already deployed.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 22:18 PMthedarkarmadillo

First off, give the 50 another go, fantastic MG, arguably the best (as it should for price) same with the pak howi mate. Absolutely a monster (especially once vetted)

If the unit is supposed to be behind lines and defensive anyways then there is no reason for it to have enough health to brawl (as in effectively defend itself against a dive, which no other 60 range TD can. A microd medium will end all other 60 range TDs but the Jackson has the mobility and turret to react but also the health to survive.

I don't want the uniy gutted, but it does need toned down

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 22:18 PMthedarkarmadillo

First off, give the 50 another go, fantastic MG, arguably the best (as it should for price) same with the pak howi mate. Absolutely a monster (especially once vetted)

If the unit is supposed to be behind lines and defensive anyways then there is no reason for it to have enough health to brawl (as in effectively defend itself against a dive, which no other 60 range TD can. A microd medium will end all other 60 range TDs but the Jackson has the mobility and turret to react but also the health to survive.

I don't want the uniy gutted, but it does need toned down

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 22:28 PMMazianni

I could see a minor health drop. I just dont know if that makes it too vulnerable for someone who does go LT, since his only other AT options would be zooks and an M6 mine for 60mun. For a captain with an AT gun itd be fine, I suppose, as long as the battle takes place near it and its not a panther or above.

On an unrelated note, how do you personally play the pak howi? I always hear how good it is versus infantry, but outside killing blobs I dont usually see it; Id rather rush a Sherman out or use my mortar for killing MGs, and when I watch replays I usually see the pack howi is too slow to escape infantry pushes, something the mortar can do well enough.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 22:29 PMMr.Flush

Usf needs higher tier units for this to work.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 23:09 PMdistrofio

IMO jackson health is the hardest way to balance it. Since it has to fight off panthers (its very intended role) but i could be less effective against all other armor.

As it is now, M36 is a beefier M10, good mobility, good pen. Since one is stock and the other is doctrinal, there is little reason for M10 to be.
To remove mobility from M36 means it becomes a more defensive unit (and less useful for USF, panthers are also defensive design). To remove ROF makes it a firefly clone, to remove its pen makes it less TD.

As jacksons are meant to be tank hunters and since USF already taxes the player with a lot of APM, sounds reasonable to force jacksons to aggressive tactics rather than be a turreted ATG. If the unit cost is decreased paired with a tech cost increase, to decrease a little its HP and addition a unit upgrade or specialization: High pen and low speed or high mobility and harder to hit, this fits the USF theme and adapt to distict axis threats.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 23:12 PMVipper

Actually I would try lowering accuracy. One can even increase the size of super heavies.

Then TDs can be balanced separately vs Super heavies where shot will hit but not always penetrate and separately vs mediums where hit will always penetrate but not always hit.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 23:57 PMthedarkarmadillo

Widening the the size gap for better tuning would be a good direction. Stuff like light vehicles being harder to hit with heavy tank counters would be great for variety

Jump back to quoted post20 Jun 2019, 21:14 PMdistrofio

You miss two points and i dont meant to be personal now. First one, the game was intended to find flanking options as a main mechanic, in between patches that mechanic was lost or became too hard to pull, so using the "wouldnt people do the obvious logic" strategy is not an argument, since people dont flank because M36 are able to pen frontally and on the move at the highest stock heavy axis tank (Pnter), why would people do something as complicated as flanking and risking their units when a single straigh shot is good enough and no risk involved? Answer that first and then you will know why woulnt people flank to win tank fights if that werent an option.