What if OKW had standard starting resources?

There is big enough space between dominating games and becoming irrelevant.

And given past experience with patches, what makes you think it wouldn't just swing all the way in?

And given past experience with patches, what makes you think it wouldn't just swing all the way in?

Because I am an optimist.

You don't need to compensate OKW with fuel, if you just redistribute their initial man power and the cost of SwS instead.

You also don't need to cut the mp by 100. If you remove 50mp they won't be able to 3x Volk or 2x Volk + Kubel early on. Cut down the cost of SwS by ±30mp.

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Why shouldnt they? Do volks have passive self regen at vet0?

I would prefer if people would just say "i dont want to OKW get buffed", at least that is being honest.

I would kindly ask you, why there would be 'problems' but do it in a way everyone can understand (im not refering of skill level).

IMO its a change, a intermediate one but it would put OKW in line with the rest of the factions.
Darkarmadillo got it right about the "luchs rush", its more like a progression, maybe a needed one, but its true that the OKW player isnt sacrificing anything in return.
USF playstile is far different from OKW, so please do not compare them. USF has priorities that OKW does not.
The manpower/fuel at start can be leveled to allow better game balance.

And no, SPios are strong but they are not the best starting unit. If anyone wants to justify a nerf to their economy.

OKW, Soviet and UKF super early game are actually all 3 above Ostheer and USF. You're the only one here talking about "only nerfing OKW", the real question here is about reducing the early game powerspike of all 3 factions so they are equal with Ostheer and USF (which get deserved early game nerf on the dodge and pathfinder).
If we only nerf OKW early game, even at the cost of increasing their midgame power, they are just going to be rolled over by Soviet scoot car and UKF UC rush.

On the other hand, if we nerf OKW, Soviet and UKF early game but only buff OKW midgame (by giving them +20 fuel), then we face the opposite issue. OKW, Soviet, UKF, USF and Ostheer are at the same early game level but then OKW will roll over all 3 allied factions with their faster T2.

In my opinion, Elchino7 got it right about what to do with OKW and then a similar operation is required for Soviet T1/Scout car rush and UKF/UC-Bolster rush which are the problematic opening for those 2 factions.

You don't need to compensate OKW with fuel, if you just redistribute their initial man power and the cost of SwS instead.

You also don't need to cut the mp by 100. If you remove 50mp they won't be able to 3x Volk or 2x Volk + Kubel early on. Cut down the cost of SwS by ±30mp.

well okw does start with 0 fuel

well okw does start with 0 fuel

And what do they need the fuel for in the first 60s of the game ?

I am fine if they nerf a bit the startings resources for OKW but I would not agree with how its current build system works.

Rak needs to removed for balancing instead for Pak40 which becomes only available after 1 base built. Price the same as Wehr. So, no early AT. Pzfaust becomes available early instead.

Infrared Halftrack being the least used unit in the whole game because it has no real effect 1v1 and above all it is not a combat unit. Just recon which any other unit can do is better. Remove it for either a dedicated AI or AT unit. Any unit replacement will do. Why does OKW need a Infrared Halftrack when they lack proper choices (cuz Volks, Luchs is the only build since it is the only only only proper build. Gosh, that is annoying). An Opel Blitz Truck would do better, lol and that is sadly true! Maybe remove for a 222 or Jagers (if jagers are given, give USF Pathfinder).

Improve FHT since it is crap. Everyone is aware, since 1v1 is hardly used and the only current build is always Luchs because we know how good it can be while FHT is a usual no go cuz its bad.

Due to its current state and lack of choice build. It forces OKW to be the way it currently is. Volks, Rak and Luchs. Nerfing just the starting resources will further undermine their overall capabilites since it is lacking. The only good part about it that makes OKW survive is Volks and Sturmpio in the beginning.

If it is changed and considered these ideas which I believe would help increase diversity, flow and balancing. We can even discuss in making Volks instead the initial unit. As long as improvements are made!

If you guys just want to decide only on nerfing the resources. It just would simply be unbalanced.

And what do they need the fuel for in the first 60s of the game ?

well they don't gain it back later, they tech is not cheaper than other faction, so they will always have a -15 fu from others

well they don't gain it back later, they tech is not cheaper than other faction, so they will always have a -15 fu from others

Unless they come across 3 vehicle or weapon wrecks across the duration of the game. But nobody uses vehicles or team weapons anyways so I guess you are right.

Unless they come across 3 vehicle or weapon wrecks across the duration of the game. But nobody uses vehicles or team weapons anyways so I guess you are right.

And the other factions negate that "advantage" by having a fuel cache up for 5 minutes or more.

well they don't gain it back later, they tech is not cheaper than other faction, so they will always have a -15 fu from others

The minus fuel is only there for timing balance so the first truck doesn't come too early, especially in case of T2. I mean balance team could give this fuel back to OKW and then increase the truck cost by 15 fuel but that would impact all tiers. They could also increase T2 fuel cost but here again this would have a negative impact in case of T1 first and if you lose your T2. Balance team could also have decided back then to make STGs and grenade not unlock's free but that's a decision they took, reducing OKW fuel start so it only impact the first truck deployment. On the mean time it also allow the balance team to manage grenade and STGs timing unlock as
-From start
-link to first truck
-first Tier build.

Let's not forget that OKW get with its teching, whatever tier the player decide first, HMG, grenade, STGs + T0 raketen. Only Ostheer here get the same package with their first tier but they also pay a lot more for it.

well they don't gain it back later, they tech is not cheaper than other faction, so they will always have a -15 fu from others

They also don't have 10-15 fuel upgrades nor 10-20 fuel tiers.

They get it by NOT spending at least 40 fuel on side tech - you could argue soviets here since cons are so out of meta their upgrades are non factor, but soviet full tech is MORE expensive then OKW one and opening with T1 forces you to backtech for T2 anyway and opening with T2 is impossible since cons are still shit and maxim wants to be like them.

You're really splitting hair in two with that kind of argument.

Let's not forget that OKW get with its teching, whatever tier the player decide first, HMG, grenade, STGs + T0 raketen. Only Ostheer here get the same package with their first tier but they also pay a lot more for it.

They pay less.

OST: T1 + BP1 + T2 - starting fuel = 10 + 40 + 20 - 20 = 50.

OKW: Truck + T2 - starting fuel = 15 + 45 - 5 = 55.

They pay less.

OST: T1 + BP1 + T2 - starting fuel = 10 + 40 + 20 - 20 = 50.

OKW: Truck + T2 - starting fuel = 15 + 45 - 5 = 55.

And now go do that math with T1, which unlocks them the exact same things.

They pay less.

OST: T1 + BP1 + T2 - starting fuel = 10 + 40 + 20 - 20 = 50.

OKW: Truck + T2 - starting fuel = 15 + 45 - 5 = 55.

Are you comparing Ostheer T1 with OKW T2?

Hey you know what that's not a secret I like to play mainly USF and I'll be more than happy to see USF starting with -15 fuel and have grenade and weapon rack and ATnade unlocked after first officer on the field.

And now go do that math with T1, which unlocks them the exact same things.

What's your point? I don't see how pointing out all the little differences in the tech trees is even remotely relevant.

The purpose of reducing OKW's starting manpower and increasing their fuel is to weaken their early game infantry presence but accelerate their light vehicles, weakening all-in infantry spam strategies for all OKW matchups.

That's it.

Hey you know what that's not a secret I like to play mainly USF and I'll be more than happy to see USF starting with -15 fuel and have grenade and weapon rack and ATnade unlocked after first officer on the field.

Then you'd be stuck in T0 for another 15 FU and be forced to build more Rifleman squads than you want or need. If you ended up even slightly on the back foot, you'd be forced to float manpower or end up with five or six infantry squads.

USF was like that before the rework, and it hamstrung them so badly they got a tech rework specifically to avoid it.

well they don't gain it back later, they tech is not cheaper than other faction, so they will always have a -15 fu from others

Initial fuel reserves are only there to account for teching timing or for allowing factions to open up with certain tech choices (SU/OH).
If OKW needs a boost through mid/late game, you can reduce the cost of any tech choices and upgrades if needed.

The 50mp value i suggested and compensating the cost on the SwS to be even or ahead after the 2nd truck is not too arbitrarily.
At 290mp you would still be able to produce a 2nd SP 3s after the start of the game, something most people fail to do so anyway, mostly due to increased loading times or lack of attention.

For normal Volk opening, it would delay the 2nd and subsequent squads by 10s. The SwS would just normalise the teching cost. You could go a step further and make the SwS -50mp each, making their overall tech cost cheaper if you consider OKW to be so weak.

And the other factions negate that "advantage" by having a fuel cache up for 5 minutes or more.

other factions can buy caches, yes. other factions, at the cost of field presence can increase their trickle of resources. at the cost of manpower, the resource used for everything. OKW can respond with an entire volks squad. the caches are not free (they are a great thing to have, dont get me wrong) but they dont simply generate resources for free like salvage can. the thing i responded to was saying that okw starts -15 fuel behind the ball and can never make that up, but they can and it costs them nothing but a few seconds of their time and the chance to get that 15 fuel and more (again at no cost nor impact to build orders) comes up organically and only increase as the game progresses.

the maxim that cant be buffed for fear of a non penal build being viable can easily turn into a fuel advantage for the OKW (god knows they arent worth recrewing) or AT guns when your army composition doesnt need it. cahces are certainly more consistent (and that right is paid for) but salvage allows for more "bonus" resources and is free.

Are you comparing Ostheer T1 with OKW T2?

Hey you know what that's not a secret I like to play mainly USF and I'll be more than happy to see USF starting with -15 fuel and have grenade and weapon rack and ATnade unlocked after first officer on the field.

AND get a free Riflemen (Officer) squad, am I right? Yeah I'd only ever play USF too.

I agree with USF AT nade actually, it's crippling that it gets locked behind vet 1 - I think having it unlocked with Officer arrival is a good idea actually.

Weapon racks as usual are just your USF-only bias. STGs are definitely excellent but you keep forgetting that weapon racks are more flexible (all squads can use it), have a MUCH higher power ceiling, and contain both AI and AT upgrades. If Volks had weapon racks for BARs and Zooks you would cry even more than you do now.

other factions can buy caches, yes. other factions, at the cost of field presence can increase their trickle of resources. at the cost of manpower, the resource used for everything. OKW can respond with an entire volks squad. the caches are not free (they are a great thing to have, dont get me wrong) but they dont simply generate resources for free like salvage can. the thing i responded to was saying that okw starts -15 fuel behind the ball and can never make that up, but they can and it costs them nothing but a few seconds of their time and the chance to get that 15 fuel and more (again at no cost nor impact to build orders) comes up organically and only increase as the game progresses.

the maxim that cant be buffed for fear of a non penal build being viable can easily turn into a fuel advantage for the OKW (god knows they arent worth recrewing) or AT guns when your army composition doesnt need it. cahces are certainly more consistent (and that right is paid for) but salvage allows for more "bonus" resources and is free.

I go non-Penal builds against Ost, but I simply can't vs OKW. Without M3 cheese you simply can't punch hard enough.

It'd be interesting to see how the SOV-OKW matchup plays out if OKW early-game is weakened.