Discuss - New Commander Patch Suggestions

I'd like to suggest some ideas for the new commander patch. Mostly balance suggestions for Axis and alternate ability suggestions for Allies. Please feel free to vote and discuss.


SOVIETS
1. Merge the Airborne Rally Point with the Airborne Guards slot. Turn the Airborne Rally Point into a USF beacon clone, which allows nearby Airborne Guards to reinforce and reveals units through the fow. Made by Engineers for free, limited to 3 at a time. Add either of these abilities to the open slot:

a. Add "Air-Ground Coordination". Recon planes flyover the enemy sectors, like UKF's "Assault", while vehicles and infantry receive combat bonusses in close proximity to each other, like USF's "Combined Arms". Costs 125 munitions.

b. Add "Improved Radio Equipment". Veteran T34/76's will be equipped with newer 9-RS tank radio sets. This allows T34's to gain the Radio Net aura at vet 1, like Shermans. This increases rof by 10% and adds 5% extra sight with each vehicle in close proximity, stacks to 3.

c. Add "Designate Command Tank". Turns selected tank into a command variant (T-70 and up), similar to UKF's "Designate Command Vehicle". Aura's / debuffs / abilities / cost to be decided by the balance team, but would have an emphasis on the Airborne theme.

I feel the Soviet Airborne commander is lacking something. Strong Soviet commanders like Urban Defense and Guard Motor offer both good infantry and vehicle options, while Airborne only offers good infantry options. By merging the Rally Point with the Airborne Guards, you can add an ability that makes stock vehicles more potent.

USF
2. Replace Cover to Cover with Fire Up (10 second sprint for 15 muni). Allow Fire Up to be used on all USF infantry (maybe except Rangers?) and remove the exhaustion debuff.

Forcing both smoke and sprint to a 70 munition ability makes it clunky and inflexible. In many cases you will end up overpaying if you simply want to flank/assault an hmg with some Rifles. Fire Up would do the job just as well for cheaper and benefit Rifle Company slightly as well.

OKW
3. Move double Schreck from Panzerfusiliers to Sturmpioniers. Sturmpioniers will be able to upgrade a second schreck for 50 munitions once they've upgraded their first Schreck (total cost would remain 120 munitions). Double Schreck for Sturms and Panzerfusilier slot would be merged.

Moves double Schrecks to a less spammable and more vulnerable squad, to decrease the efficiency of Schreck blobs. Sturms cost 300 manpower, have 4 models and cost 30 manpower to reinforce, which is more similar to the proven concept that is Schrecked Pgrens.

4. Replace Teller mines for double Schreck squad with USF AT stun mines.

Many people have voiced their concern about another faction receiving OHK mines. OKW arguably doesn't need more LV counters besides the Puma, Raketen and double Schrecks. The RE stun mines would still offer good synergy, while not making OKW's AT overkill.

OSTHEER
5. Lock Schrecks for Panzergrenadiers behind the T2 building. An exception is made for the Panzergrenadiers in the Mechanized Assault Group.

Intended to reduce the potency of Pgren into Ostwind/P4 rush strats. You would have to make the T2 building for AT, as it is now. Would keep the Mechanized Assault Group as a unique option.

I would rather replace the fusiliers double shreks with x2 panzerbuche as a cheaper muni alternative but keep their snare nades & teller to make them a good light vehicle response without being overbearing on medium armor, keep in mind panzerbuches have higher stats than ptrs for pen and damage so they can still threaten mediums to a reasonable extent with their snares/mine utility and a fair bit of chip damage without becoming nuke blobs.

Voted yes to almost all of the suggestions (for SU i opted for the radio net) since they all are gameplay buff rather than raw power of units.

I only voted other on the OST one since although i like the Pgren Shrek Lock behind tech logic, i dont think that there should be doctrinal exceptions. That will make the game confusing.
I would suggest following the line OP has started to lock Shrecks behind either T1 or T2 built, like grens faust.

Judging by this I have no doubt that the Soviet fanboys just want to keep their precious new forward retreat point meanwhile the Ostheer can't even get the retreat ability tied to the Forward Supply Station that is more balanced since like Vipper said you could only retreat one unit a time which is both unique and more balanced if you ask me.

Judging by this I have no doubt that the Soviet fanboys just want to keep their precious new forward retreat point meanwhile the Ostheer can't even get the retreat ability tied to the Forward Supply Station that is more balanced since like Vipper said you could only retreat one unit a time which is both unique and more balanced if you ask me.

For every post like this, you have one corresponding about ost fanboys not wanting soviets to have something that they do, you know, like a working mainline infantry with a weapon upgrade.

For every post like this, you have one corresponding about ost fanboys not wanting soviets to have something that they do, you know, like a working mainline infantry with a weapon upgrade.

Problem is I was a part of the crowd that never understood why the Conscripts never got weapon upgrades while war criminals in brown pajamas did.

So the counter argument of me being biased falls flat on it's face, all I want is an even playing field so it doesn't feel like you're constantly being forced to play handicapped for whatever stupid reason.

Problem is I was a part of the crowd that never understood why the Conscripts never got weapon upgrades while war criminals in brown pajamas did.

So the counter argument of me being biased falls flat on it's face, all I want is an even playing field so it doesn't feel like you're constantly being forced to play handicapped for whatever stupid reason.

I didn't said you're biased, however, each and every faction is "handicapped" for "whatever stupid reason" that's called asymmetrical balance.

Soviets have forward retreat points, ost has panzer tactician, soviets have lot of infantry call-ins, ost have lots of vehicle call-ins and so on.

I myself am not a fan of forward retreat points, since they only encourage blobbing, however they do fit soviets as their infantry isn't exactly blobb-able outside of regular guards, which aren't resent in that doctrine.

Plus, MOBILE can turn invisible, 60 range maphack forward reinforcement point isn't half bad.

Make the Airborne HQ as a British HQ: reinforcement, reconnaissance aircraft, transfer the IL-2 23-mm strafe to the headquarters.
Give Airborne Guard artillery strike as Pathfinders reconnaissance group. they don’t make sense to appear in the enemy’s rear, they can only cut off the fuel point, they can’t even cut off the usual point, as most likely it will be resources cache.

There are also a few unique stuff for the Airborne Forces, but this requires new moding tools:
37-mm airborne cannon model 1944
crew: 4 people
weight: 209 kg
rate of fire: 15-25 shots per minute, technical rate of fire 25-30 shots per minute.
armor penetration: for the 37-mm cannon a sub-caliber UBR-167P was developed and produced, piercing 97 mm of armor at a distance of 300 meters.
Show Spoiler

T-40 light tank was in the airborne separate tank battalions.
weapon: 12.7-mm and 7.62-mm machine guns. Also armed with a 20-mm automatic cannon with a rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute.

It can be build in T0, after construction T3 can be improved by 20-mm cannon.
Show Spoiler

76-mm mountain cannon model 1938
was in service with the artillery batteries of the Airborne Forces.
crew: 6 people
weight: 785 kg
firing range: 10,700 meters (best in class)
maximum projectile speed: 500 m / s (best in class)
projectiles: high-explosive, smoke, cumulative, canister.
My proposal here is not to make it a copy of the German and US infantry guns. Make the Soviet mountain cannon a miniature version of the ML-20 and leFH 18. Can move but only after deployment, can shoot only after deployment, no possibility of auto-fire only like ML-20 and leFH 18.
Show Spoiler

Make the Airborne HQ as a British HQ: reinforcement, reconnaissance aircraft, transfer the IL-2 23-mm strafe to the headquarters.
Give Airborne Guard artillery strike as Pathfinders reconnaissance group. they don’t make sense to appear in the enemy’s rear, they can only cut off the fuel point, they can’t even cut off the usual point, as most likely it will be resources cache.

There are also a few unique stuff for the Airborne Forces, but this requires new moding tools:
37-mm airborne cannon model 1944
crew: 4 people
weight: 209 kg
rate of fire: 15-25 shots per minute, technical rate of fire 25-30 shots per minute.
armor penetration: for the 37-mm cannon a sub-caliber UBR-167P was developed and produced, piercing 97 mm of armor at a distance of 300 meters.
Show Spoiler

T-40 light tank was in the airborne separate tank battalions.
weapon: 12.7-mm and 7.62-mm machine guns. Also armed with a 20-mm automatic cannon with a rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute.

It can be build in T0, after construction T3 can be improved by 20-mm cannon.
Show Spoiler

76-mm mountain cannon model 1938
was in service with the artillery batteries of the Airborne Forces.
crew: 6 people
weight: 785 kg
firing range: 10,700 meters (best in class)
maximum projectile speed: 500 m / s (best in class)
projectiles: high-explosive, smoke, cumulative, canister.
My proposal here is not to make it a copy of the German and US infantry guns. Make the Soviet mountain cannon a miniature version of the ML-20 and leFH 18. Can move but only after deployment, can shoot only after deployment, no possibility of auto-fire only like ML-20 and leFH 18.
Show Spoiler

Relic have said no new models can be added into the game

SOVIETS
1. Merge the Airborne Rally Point with the Airborne Guards slot.

No more merging pls.

a. Add "Air-Ground Coordination".

A superior version of combined arm whith cheaper vehicles, not really a good idea.


b. Add "Improved Radio Equipment".
Calculate the minimum reload of these T-34/76 you might find way too low.


"I feel the Soviet Airborne commander is lacking something. Strong Soviet commanders like Urban Defense and Guard Motor offer both good infantry and vehicle options, while Airborne only offers good infantry options. By merging the Rally Point with the Airborne Guards, you can add an ability that makes stock vehicles more potent."

The aim should be to increase the number of commander used not make one commander everyone uses. If the Urban Defense and Guard Motor are strong they should be nerfed to level of other commander so that more commander are used and if soviet faction is then weak it should be buffed. Commander should be bourght to about the same power level.


USF
2. Replace Cover to Cover with Fire Up (10 second sprint for 15 muni).
There is no reason to create "super conscripts" with sprint and flame grenades or RE that can sprint use smoke grenades and rifle-grenades.

The problem with the new okw commander is that it has too many uber abilities like overwatch.

If you're going to buff the crap out of panzerfus or sturms with double Shrek and teller+ sprint ability you better make sure the rest of the doctrine is in order. (So not having a call in tiger).


Imagine if recon company had a Pershing at the end to supplement your elite AT paras and greyhound. It would be OP for sure

Relic have said no new models can be added into the game

So I said: we need new modding tools, Relic is unable and unwilling to support the game. So give the tools to those who want to do it. In the current state of the Airborne Forces, the commander does not look like a commander for the official game, the Airborne Forces do not have parachute animation, skin, no abilities that were actually used by the Airborne Forces.

I only voted other on the OST one since although i like the Pgren Shrek Lock behind tech logic, i dont think that there should be doctrinal exceptions. That will make the game confusing.
I would suggest following the line OP has started to lock Shrecks behind either T1 or T2 built, like grens faust.

I'm surprised not more people want Schrecks locked behind the T2 building. I would like to point out that Schrecked Pgrens into the new buffed Ostwind is very strong in the preview, and I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the meta for 1v1. I don't feel that was the intended effect of moving Pgrens to the HQ.

What would you do with the Mechanized Assault Group, maybe let them come pre-equipped with Schrecks at an increased price? I feel Mechanized Assault will become unviable once the patch hits. The Assault Grenadiers and Tiger are already in the new doctrine, with stronger abilities, while the HQ Pgrens give you an AT option when skipping T2, essentially making the Mechanized Assault Group obsolete. The only reason to pick Mechanized over Reserves would be Stugie spam into Tiger stall, which is mostly a meme strategy.

Make the Airborne HQ as a British HQ: reinforcement, reconnaissance aircraft, transfer the IL-2 23-mm strafe to the headquarters.
Give Airborne Guard artillery strike as Pathfinders reconnaissance group. they don’t make sense to appear in the enemy’s rear, they can only cut off the fuel point, they can’t even cut off the usual point, as most likely it will be resources cache.

This sounds like a better idea than a command tank (altough you could move some of the concepts over to it). Did you feel anything for "Air-Ground Coordination" or "Improved Radio Equipment"?

Airborne Guards could do with a timed demo, like Airborne Paratroopers, it would be enough to take down a Howitzer and be easier to balance than a strike.

SOVIETS
1. Merge the Airborne Rally Point with the Airborne Guards slot.

No more merging pls.

Do you consider Pathfinders having beacons a merge? Cause this would basically be that.

a. Add "Air-Ground Coordination".

A superior version of combined arm whith cheaper vehicles, not really a good idea.

Combined Arms is also virtually unused. Might as well extrapolate this change to Combined Arms. Consider that even with Recon added, it has a hefty munitions cost and veterancy bonusses are replaced with the Combined Arms bonusses. The trade-offs are there.

b. Add "Improved Radio Equipment".

Calculate the minimum reload of these T-34/76 you might find way too low.

It's a far slower rof and penetration than M4C's, which also have Radio Net. Could add a small fuel cost of 10, instead of a munitions cost, to make spamming it slightly less powerful.

"I feel the Soviet Airborne commander is lacking something. Strong Soviet commanders like Urban Defense and Guard Motor offer both good infantry and vehicle options, while Airborne only offers good infantry options. By merging the Rally Point with the Airborne Guards, you can add an ability that makes stock vehicles more potent."

The aim should be to increase the number of commander used not make one commander everyone uses. If the Urban Defense and Guard Motor are strong they should be nerfed to level of other commander so that more commander are used and if soviet faction is then weak it should be buffed. Commander should be bourght to about the same power level.

How do any of my suggestions turn Soviet Airborne into a be-all end-all commander? Why nerf most Soviet commanders instead of just giving Soviet Airborne something that helps its lategame?

USF
2. Replace Cover to Cover with Fire Up (10 second sprint for 15 muni).

There is no reason to create "super conscripts" with sprint and flame grenades or RE that can sprint use smoke grenades and rifle-grenades.

- The sprint is more expensive at 15 munitions (vs 10).
- The Molotovs are more expensive at 30 munitions (vs 15).

Every time Rifles would use one of these abilities, they delay their BAR's, a trade-off Cons don't have.

Also, how is a 10 second sprint a problem if RE's have smoke grenades and rifle grenades? The riflenade launcher is a far too slow weapon to kite with, not to mention it would miss anyway if a squad is chasing you.

What would you do with Cover to Cover otherwise? Do you consider it worth using currently?

Do you consider Pathfinders having beacons a merge? Cause this would basically be that.

Beacons require a separate unit and Pathfinder are op. They also are available to another faction and what is ok for a faction can be op for another...

Combined Arms is also virtually unused. Might as well extrapolate this change to Combined Arms. Consider that even with Recon added, it has a hefty munitions cost and veterancy bonusses are replaced with the Combined Arms bonusses. The trade-offs are there.

Again what is unused in another faction can be OP...Are sure about the bonuses not stacking? Because I think it only applies to the reload of the Pershing.

It's a far slower rof and penetration than M4C's, which also have Radio Net. Could add a small fuel cost of 10, instead of a munitions cost, to make spamming it slightly less powerful.

The unit is allot cheaper and easier to horde. Again calculate the reload of a fully buffed T-34/76 and you might be surprised.

How do any of my suggestions turn Soviet Airborne into a be-all end-all commander? Why nerf most Soviet commanders instead of just giving Soviet Airborne something that helps its lategame?

Imo the best way to increase the commander used is to make them about the same power level, that mean nerf the "strong" one buff the "weak" one. Else you simply replacing one meta commander with another with each revamp.

- The sprint is more expensive at 15 munitions (vs 10).
- The Molotovs are more expensive at 30 munitions (vs 15).

Every time Rifles would use one of these abilities, they delay their BAR's, a trade-off Cons don't have.

Molotov are 20 mu ourah is 15 and riflemen are more powerful than conscripts the animation is allot faster also.

If the hmg-42 can be easily flank and push off map ostheer will be become even weaker.

Also, how is a 10 second sprint a problem if RE's have smoke grenades and rifle grenades? The riflenade launcher is a far too slow weapon to kite with, not to mention it would miss anyway if a squad is chasing you.

If the hmg-42 can be easily flank and push off map ostheer will be become even weaker.

What would you do with Cover to Cover otherwise? Do you consider it worth using currently?

A) not all command abilities must very strong since the total power of the abilities of commander must be inline with other commander to increase the meta.

B) a simple timed ability that increase the performance of units in garrison and/or vs cover is enough.

This sounds like a better idea than a command tank (altough you could move some of the concepts over to it). Did you feel anything for "Air-Ground Coordination" or "Improved Radio Equipment"?

Airborne Guards could do with a timed demo, like Airborne Paratroopers, it would be enough to take down a Howitzer and be easier to balance than a strike.

This is exactly what I have always said. For the Airborne, a meaning is needed to appear behind enemy lines. And the destruction of the Howitzer or the OKW Headquarters with an artillery strike - this is what the Airborne really need.Currently, it's just a theatrical appearance without meaning.

Beacons require a separate unit and Pathfinder are op. They also are available to another faction and what is ok for a faction can be op for another...

Again, I don't think merging the Rally Point and Airborne Guards is a problem. Consider Rally Point would be nerfed in some aspects (no med kits, FRP or full reinforce). It can't be placed at 0 CP like USF beacons, because it would be merged with the 3 CP Airborne Guards slot.

Again what is unused in another faction can be OP...Are sure about the bonuses not stacking? Because I think it only applies to the reload of the Pershing.

"[...] When Combined Arms is active, only the Combined Arms reload and accuracy benefits would apply to the unit, not the veterancy bonuses or any others. This means that a veterancy 3 Pershing, along with many other veteran USF units, will fire slower if you use Combined Arms with them."

I just checked. The Su-76 (-25% with vet), Su-85 (-20% with vet) and T-70 (-20% with vet) would benefit in any case (Combined Arms gives -30% reload), while a vet 3 t34/76 would have a hampered rof (-44% with full vet). It's about the same for USF vehicles, except the vet 3 Pershing, which gets -50% reload at vet 3, and a fully vetted Jackson, which gets -32% reload.

The infantry buff should just be changed to normal +25% accuracy, like other infantry buffs, because the exclusive +30% accuracy nerfs almost all vetted infantry. Remove the other infantry bonusses.

The unit is allot cheaper and easier to horde. Again calculate the reload of a fully buffed T-34/76 and you might be surprised.

For reference: a 3x radio net M4C gets 1,95s reload at vet 3

Vet 0 T34: 6,1 reload
Vet 0 T34 + 3x Radio net: 4,45 reload

vet 2 T34: 4,88 reload
Vet 2 T34 + 3x Radio net: 3,56 reload

vet 3 T34: 3,42 reload
Vet 3 T34 + 3x Radio net: 2,49 reload

You have a point. Luckily, it's possible to balance abilities, so I propose:
- Make radio net a passive unlock at vet 1 for T34's with Soviet Airborne doctrine.
- If a fully radio netted T34 is deemed too powerful, only allow radio net to stack twice for T34's.

If the Soviet player can keep all his T34's vetted, I congratulate him on his good play.

Imo the best way to increase the commander used is to make them about the same power level, that mean nerf the "strong" one buff the "weak" one. Else you simply replacing one meta commander with another with each revamp.

Again, I don't see how any of my suggestions will make Soviet Airborne the new meta. Soviet Airborne lacks elements that have made the current meta commanders meta, namely: light vehicle stopgaps (M-42, Guards), advanced mediums (T34/85, KV1) and heavy call-ins (KV2, IS2). None of my suggestions add these.

Molotov are 20 mu ourah is 15 and riflemen are more powerful than conscripts the animation is allot faster also.

Sorry for the wrong numbers. I still don't see, however, how molotovs and sprint are a problem for balance. It's not like conscripts oorah'ing and throwing molotovs is how Soviets are played these days. If you would use your riflemen like that, you'd bleed yourself dry, considering their lower numbers and higher reinforcement cost. USF molotovs are still 50% more expensive.

If the hmg-42 can be easily flank and push off map ostheer will be become even weaker.

Ìf you allow your MG42 to be flanked without response, it's your own fault, even if the enemy has sprint. Remember that Fire Up is currently behind 2 CP (should be 1 CP imo), a time when you should have enough units on the field to screen for your MG42.

A) not all command abilities must very strong since the total power of the abilities of commander must be inline with other commander to increase the meta.

B) a simple timed ability that increase the performance of units in garrison and/or vs cover is enough.

A) If a 15 muni sprint is very strong, then what is a 10 muni sprint that also allows your units to upgrade camo? I'm just asking for a non-useless ability to replace Cover to Cover.

B) An interesting idea. Better than this overpriced Cover to Cover concept.

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Again, I don't see how any of my suggestions will make Soviet Airborne the new meta. Soviet Airborne lacks elements that have made the current meta commanders meta, namely: light vehicle stopgaps (M-42, Guards), advanced mediums (T34/85, KV1) and heavy call-ins (KV2, IS2). None of my suggestions add these....

Soviet Airborne provides infatry buff that allow to put pressure, elite infatry, elite smg with elite crew, powerful off map. It should not also provide more powerful tanks. (radio net combined arm)

Imo Commander should provide significant bonuses in one area/time frame and not in all stage of the game.

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Sorry for the wrong numbers.

Not a problem we all make mistakes

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A) If a 15 muni sprint is very strong, then what is a 10 muni sprint that also allows your units to upgrade camo? I'm just asking for a non-useless ability to replace Cover to Cover.
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Sprint should not have been merged with camo neither ppsh with hit the dirt.

Soviet Airborne provides infatry buff that allow to put pressure, elite infatry, elite smg with elite crew, powerful off map. It should not also provide more powerful tanks. (radio net combined arm)

Imo Commander should provide significant bonuses in one area/time frame and not in all stage of the game.

The only thing it really offers is SVT conscripts. The Airborne Guards are just worse Shocks / Guards in their respective role. There's no guard PTRS's or M-42, so light vehicles will bully you all the time. The doctrine has very high munition costs because of the dshk, expensive DP's, weapon crates and skillstrafe.

Giving Combined Arms (my preferred option), you'd be given something that can help in the late game if you're already well established. It won't do much if you have an inferior composition on the field. Add on top of that the high munition cost of this doctrine, it wouldn't be easily spammable.

Otherwise, how about a completely different idea. We don't merge the Rally Point and add no new commander slot, but add the option for Airborne Guards to upgrade 2 elite zooks, how's that?

Sprint should not have been merged with camo neither ppsh with hit the dirt.

My point was: 15 muni sprint is not a very strong ability, it's good, no more.

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Lets wait after the KOTH where we can get a better idea of the power level of each commander...

Lets wait after the KOTH where we can get a better idea of the power level of each commander...

I'm afraid we will only have a full understanding of its power level when the patch becomes official. New commander vs new commander doesn't say much.

In my current view, if SVT conscripts prove to be strong, it will probably become pretty popular in 1v1. If Penals remain the better choice, Airborne will become the next NKVD.