Soviet General Faction Changes - New cmdr mod 5.0

what about green tho ? are u gonna leave them like this ?

Serious question, are you going to fix the crap from Urban Defense doctrine?

m42 is already overperforming, you add to that shocks and call-in KV2, it's way too frustrating to play against.

Do you really see a buff here? I see that modders know that conscripts suck at a later game, but instead of a buff, they just blur the problem. Even with the seventh person they will be bad against other infantry in the later game, which is why they have a 20% gain in experience and cheap reinforcement - they will suck and die.

Maybe the problem is this way of giving feedback about the conscript buff. I do agree that its not enough, but it shows the dev team does care about conscript situation. Do you really want triple buff/nerf solutions? Out of balance "this is my turn to be OP" BS? I dont, i do appreciate dev team caring for cons and giving NEW ideas instead of "make cons the new obers" concepts i've seen suggested so many times.

Cons not meant to be good at lategame, but i guess more cost reduction and more survival would be a good way to go.

Serious question, are you going to fix the crap from Urban Defense doctrine?

m42 is already overperforming, you add to that shocks and call-in KV2, it's way too frustrating to play against.

Maybe you shouldnt play that commander anymore if your words about him is "crap", also demmanding buffs its not the best way to ask something to the mod team that you dont even pay a penny to them, they are not slaves, you know?
Why would you waste your time like that. You have plenty of other commanders to choose from.

Is it possible to make 7 man upgrade mutually exclusive with the ppsch/PRTS upgrade without taking 1 weapon slot? So 7 man cons would be still able to pick up lucky schreck/mg42 without ability to upgrade them with ppsch and stuff

Is it possible to make 7 man upgrade mutually exclusive with the ppsch/PRTS upgrade without taking 1 weapon slot? So 7 man cons would be still able to pick up lucky schreck/mg42 without ability to upgrade them with ppsch and stuff

The only way i see it viable is that 7th man for conscript comes with weapon upgrades for the squad. Like SVTs or a single DP20

Is it possible to make 7 man upgrade mutually exclusive with the ppsch/PRTS upgrade without taking 1 weapon slot? So 7 man cons would be still able to pick up lucky schreck/mg42 without ability to upgrade them with ppsch and stuff

I don't know how the thing's actually programmed, but it'd strike me as odd if a squad upgrade simply can't be made to lock out other upgrades. It should just be like UKF's Hammer vs. Anvil.

Maybe the problem is this way of giving feedback about the conscript buff. I do agree that its not enough, but it shows the dev team does care about conscript situation. Do you really want triple buff/nerf solutions? Out of balance "this is my turn to be OP" BS? I dont, i do appreciate dev team caring for cons and giving NEW ideas instead of "make cons the new obers" concepts i've seen suggested so many times.

Cons not meant to be good at lategame, but i guess more cost reduction and more survival would be a good way to go.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/89485/soviet-general-faction-changes-new-cmdr-mod-5-0/post/740455
I have already offered my version: it improves the version that conscripts are needed for throwing grenades, plus it will give a bonus to the damage that they need. This bonus can be easily adjusted because it is not tied to any weapon.

I also proposed a radical solution, once and for all solve the problem of conscripts and penal by combining these units into one stretching them in time:
- conscripts model is renamed to the "rifle squad", removed abilities: Ura and merge, get six SVT-40 for 60-80 ammunition
- Penal model get Ura (increases movement speed and rate of fire), merge and move to the ability "rapid conscript" (because their skin without uniforms is more like quickly mobilized conscripts), similar to Osttruppen.

This way we get rid of the terrible design that the Soviets have two starting main infantry units and a blanket pulling which is more important / useful / earned more buffs. Because conscripts turn into penal.

^

I don't know how the thing's actually programmed, but it'd strike me as odd if a squad upgrade simply can't be made to lock out other upgrades. It should just be like UKF's Hammer vs. Anvil.

I think engineer flamer and sweeper is better comparison.

Whats the point of surviving and saving a squad that will always lose engaments in late game anyway, genius? You will lose VP's and you bleed insane amount of manpower which could be spent on squads capable of actually winning engaments and dealing damage back. What does additional man change? Conscripts arent grenadiers, they were never weak against artillery in first place, adding a man just increases bleed and MP reinforcement decrease offsets it and as result you just have 7 man conscripts... which changes nothing as they still bleed you and you still lose engagements

What do cons do right now? Throwing AT nades, crewing weapons, merging and digging in behind cover.
The extra model means they can pick up 2 crew weapons with the same squad and still make it out with the squad. 2 cons squads now means you can FULLY crew 2 weapons to 6 men and not lose the squads! Incredible!

Its worth noting that the time that cons start falling off is about the time that Soviet elite infantry become available, if you don't have elite infantry you will probably going penals anyways. It's having to deal with them late game that was the problem. Now they have a role. They can merge and they can recrew and they can sit and hold ground by just being so damn stubborn to dislodge. With the vet speed increase replacing them isn't a death sentence because they are still bodies to move but WILL vet up a bit faster. The reduced reinforcement cost makes it so merging starts being more effecient. It's a good step.

I think engineer flamer and sweeper is better comparison.

Only if you're smart enough to think about it and say it. Though I suppose that actually is technically distinct from the question as it's demanding an upgrade be mutually exclusive while not taking up a weapon slot and flamer or sweeper both take a slot.

Only if you're smart enough to think about it and say it. Though I suppose that actually is technically distinct from the question as it's demanding an upgrade be mutually exclusive while not taking up a weapon slot and flamer or sweeper both take a slot.

Sweeper doesn't take weapon slot, at the very least not RET sweeper as you can have it and 2 zooks, so its possible to have an exclusive upgrade that doesn't take weapon slot. Its just a matter of setting the same flag for alternative.

However, if 7th man didn't took weapon slot, we might end up with 7 man con squads with Vickers K, they could potentially be uncontested when it comes to attrition.

A meaningful rate of fire buff(again, 5 to 15% DPS increase) would be sufficient for their late game scaling.

Is it possible to make 7 man upgrade mutually exclusive with the ppsch/PRTS upgrade without taking 1 weapon slot? So 7 man cons would be still able to pick up lucky schreck/mg42 without ability to upgrade them with ppsch and stuff

I think it's deliberate. Volksgrenadiers are the same: the StG upgrade eats all their slots.

Sweeper doesn't take weapon slot, at the very least not RET sweeper as you can have it and 2 zooks, so its possible to have an exclusive upgrade that doesn't take weapon slot. Its just a matter of setting the same flag for alternative.

Huh, sorry for not remembering that and making incorrect claims then.

Stock Conscripts do not need to be great at attacking like Penals. It’s not their role given outside of Molotovs where you need bodies to close in and still have firepower left. They have more utility and we also want to emphasize that. If Conscripts were just as good at attacking, why get Penals?

They’re more meant to be supporting the rest of the Soviet line through screening, AT grenades, reinforcement, cover construction, etc. Population they might drop to 6 or the upgrade might give other bonuses if they are still lacklustre.

Yeah, good theory design of conscripts. But fact is, with this approach nobody uses cons because why you want a sponge unit when you can have penals? This approach has been taken over the years and just lead cons into oblivion. Theres no other army in all game which mainline infantry is not worth building.

I'd rather make cons good (with upgrades through tech) and be penals like an specialized AT unit with ptrs. Or any other approach, but man, cons being crap support cheap unit is just a big no. Not realiable, not funny to play with.

Yeah, good theory design of conscripts. But fact is, with this approach nobody uses cons because why you want a sponge unit when you can have penals? ...

To spot for TD? To capture VPs under fire? To chase and snare tanks without loosing too much resources/value? To scout and flank for weakspots and for giving space oto other infantry.
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Cons are bad but i enjoy every time i can use them. They have still some fun.

Penals on the other side, they bleed more and you woulnt risk them.

Biggest question is reinforcement cost reduce to 17……so in later game all Soviet infantry and weapon squad got 0.71 volume and 17 reinforcement……

Maybe you shouldnt play that commander anymore if your words about him is "crap", also demmanding buffs its not the best way to ask something to the mod team that you dont even pay a penny to them, they are not slaves, you know?
Why would you waste your time like that. You have plenty of other commanders to choose from.

When you want to be a smart ass, it's better you do try your best at reading comprehension.
You end up exposing yourself as a retard otherwise.

Hey guys, haven’t posted here in awhile, but I’ve been following this thread with great interest. Thematically, I really like the addition of another man to conscript squads but I have a couple of suggestions. First of all, adding another Mosin toting conscript to con squads as a late game, muni based upgrade, is aesthetically a bit boring. Usually hitting that muni upgrade button results in a shiny new weapon for your squad and so to spice it up a bit, I would suggest making the 7th model an officer (NCO or commissar) carrying either a ppsh or possibly an svt. You could look to the American LT for inspiration as that unit provides flare vs yet another rifle squad, but also doesn’t provide anything too drastically different damage profile wise without the zook upgrade.

Second of all, I see that you’re contemplating adding a cover bonus if the extra man isn’t enough, and might I instead suggest that the upgrade provides cons with a variation of the penal battalion’s To The Last Man ability which buffs the squad as they take losses. This would allow cons to maintain their mobility and not be tied to cover. It would also allow cons to maintain more of their dps in late game as the damage on the whole starts to ramp up. In my opinion, part of why cons feel so bad in the late game, is that with no weapon upgrades, each model lost impacts their dps output more drastically. A variation of To The Last Man would help mitigate that without having to worry about drastically changing their alpha strike or blobbing potential if given true weapon upgrades.

Anyway, good luck! This balancing process is fun to watch.