Soviet General Faction Changes - New cmdr mod 5.0

I still feel like one of the unique markers of the Soviet Army, the mass deployment of Submachine Guns, is completely missed in CoH2. Most of the time you'll play the whole game without a single SMG in your whole army. I've long advocated for Conscript PPSh's for that reason and because it would enforce the dynamic of Grenadiers Long (LMG) - Conscripts Short (SMG).

There is an icon in the game files that resembles the Conscript's icon, but with crossed PPSh's instead of Mosins. I think that could be worked into the game somehow, either to show a distinct unit or to show that they've received the global PPSh upgrade (as opposed to the doctrinal upgrade/won't mask objects the upgraded cons have picked up).

This 1000%!

6 shocktroopers ppsh's for penals sounds a bit strong, considering they get far better accuracy bonusses than shocks (+ for the last man). It would turn them into the highest close range dps unit in the game, but made out of glass.

Sounds better to me to just give them something like 6 conscript ppsh's and +0,25 armor if they pick up the weapon crate. Or 3 shock ppsh's + 0,25 armor.

In any case, I'd like to see a good player use it in a test game.

lol.

One of the reasons weapon upgrades aren’t being considered is that the only weapons you can give them are SVTs.

If it came to "the worst", I really wouldn't mind 3 SVT upgrade as stock late game option, while soviet airborne could get con PTRS upgrade instead or just literally anything else that would make sense for the doctrine(not much point in having SVT as paradrop, when exclusively 2 squads benefit from them and they are useless for non soviet players).

However, I am very eager to test 7 man cons, while in direct combat they may actually be able to outlast something, additional rifle will help if only ever so slightly and while they cost less to reinforce, won't additional pop cap hog basically cancel this out?

And lastly, I see the reason why it occupies weapon slot, otherwise ppsh cons would be batshit insane, however is barely 17% increase in durability and firepower worth it to give up ability to steal possible shreck or LMG? Its not that obvious.

We’re seeing what can be done first with Conscripts to reinforce their support and ability to out attrition the enemy. We had other ideas, though, for the upgrade like a cover bonus to reinforce their role of the unit wanting to fight from cover late game and be a unit to inefficiently attack into without support.

I do see the point, but wouldn't that lead to no change at all?
Only point going for stock cons is ability to amass them as all alternatives cost considerably more and if they are inefficient in attack, including late game, why would I want some cons, when I could have more penals, who are able to do both, attack and defend equally good thanks to their new vet1.

Also, what about the rec acc of cons? Is really that 1.03 rec acc still needed for anything?
They get enough of rec acc vet for it to not matter later, but it makes their one utility, merge not really that good of a choice outside of really desperate panic situations(like... you decided to build cons instead of penals and didn't picked ppsh doctrine ).

What about su-76? It will have decreased penetration, but buff for accuracy and rotation? Su-76 is now a dead unit, these changes don't make it viable. Su 76 costs 75 fuel while stug costs 90. 15 more fuel, but more armor (don't die from small arms and can't be fausted while have 100% health and need 4 ATG shots to die, while su-76 only 3 and can be fausted even with 100% health), mg and better AT. What role of su-76 with comparsion to stug? It needs decreased price or reworked active ability. Because right now su-76 only waste of fuel.

Stock Conscripts do not need to be great at attacking like Penals. It’s not their role given outside of Molotovs where you need bodies to close in and still have firepower left. They have more utility and we also want to emphasize that. If Conscripts were just as good at attacking, why get Penals?

They’re more meant to be supporting the rest of the Soviet line through screening, AT grenades, reinforcement, cover construction, etc. Population they might drop to 6 or the upgrade might give other bonuses if they are still lacklustre.

I think the most confusing part of soviets are penals. Every army have their backbone infantry, but not soviets. I think penals must become more specialized unit. I prefer to see them as 4 man squad with body armor, ppsh and satchels for close combat or if uprgaded as tank hunters with AT satchels and 2 ptrs, but abilit like brit sniper. It will prevented them for spamming and make them specialists. WHile cons must be backbone.

I just dont see a reason to ever build cons, other than feeding the enemy free vet.

outside of 1 or 2 for snares, I wouldnt spend a single fuel/pop on them that I diddnt absolutely have to. Giving them more models just means more vet for the enemy while the cons continue to not do very much.

Penal spam shall continue.

Stock Conscripts do not need to be great at attacking like Penals. It’s not their role given outside of Molotovs where you need bodies to close in and still have firepower left. They have more utility and we also want to emphasize that. If Conscripts were just as good at attacking, why get Penals?

They’re more meant to be supporting the rest of the Soviet line through screening, AT grenades, reinforcement, cover construction, etc. Population they might drop to 6 or the upgrade might give other bonuses if they are still lacklustre.

And you leave them useless, they can build sandbags, throw a grenade without a seventh person. A 20% increase to veteranism is useless after 10-15 minutes of the game, AT grenades throws give a lot of experience, by the time the upgrade is available, there will be 2-3 veterans. By this point they need an increase in firepower to support the role. Increasing the squadron by one person and the lack of a weapons slot will not give any positive effect. On the contrary, I consider it a negative effect. If conscripts take the captured MG-42, they will be nice, if MG-34, they are excellent. I personally do not miss the chance of a real improvement on the myth of a chance of survival. All they needed was a weapon improvement in T4 and not a ridiculous system of improvement when they did not benefit from it.

What about su-76? It will have decreased penetration, but buff for accuracy and rotation? Su-76 is now a dead unit, these changes don't make it viable. Su 76 costs 75 fuel while stug costs 90. 15 more fuel, but more armor (don't die from small arms and can't be fausted while have 100% health and need 4 ATG shots to die, while su-76 only 3 and can be fausted even with 100% health), mg and better AT. What role of su-76 with comparsion to stug? It needs decreased price or reworked active ability. Because right now su-76 only waste of fuel.

What is 60 range?

Speaking about SVT, why wasnt this upgrade considered? Because it makes Cons too similar to Penals? If so, you could've just reduced accuracy vet bonuses and gave Conscripts slightly more RA instead, making their vet like reverse Penal vet.
3-man SVT looks far more saner approach than 7 man cannon fodder hordes (no people still wont use them, just like they didnt use rapid conscription)

I am 100% against this 7man conscripts squad. Not only is it more free vet for the opposing team, it fails to give conscripts the firepower needed to serve as mainline units. This alongside miragefla’s statement that cons are not meant to be the backbone of the soviet army, further solidifies that conscripts are a dead unit which would be better off not existing at this point.

Currently, 300mp penals are one of the best mainlines in the game, despite technically not being a mainline. They have a great vet1 ability which saves some dps when dropping models and become godly when picking up a dropped lmgs from grens. Guards are fantastic with double lmgs and can function as light obers with added AT capacity. Shock troops are specialist AI units which can cleave through lines and blobs with great efficiency and rack up kills. At vet 3 they maul infantry with ease.

What do conscripts get? By vet 3 they get decreased target size which is good, but they do not deal enough meaningful damage. They can build sandbags, which is alonside urah+at grenade are their only real uses. Comparing them to other faction mainlines is just depressing.

Grenadiers get the lmg upgrade which is excellent and synergizes with the faction long range design. UKF infantry sections are the best mainline in the game and get wonderful rate of fire bonuses depending on their cover, which fits the theme of defensive infantry, plus they can pick up lmgs for munitions. USF riflemen have excellent rate of fire and can pick up double lmgs, plus they get great vet 3 bonuses. Volks are amazing and definitely overperforming their cost, without mentioning obers.

Cons are just a dead unit at thins point, born in an era where relic believed enemy at the gates was history. Just looking at Soviet infantry in Steel division 2 makes you depressed when considering coh2. A radical change needs to be made.

My suggestions: Buff conscripts in a meaningful manner. Give them 3 SVTs by default with the capacity to pick up another weapon or upgrade with ppshs and buff their combat stats, but remove oorah. Reduce penals to a 5 man squad with oorah and faster capture rate, as well as the capacity to put down mines, at 320mp to be used as a breakthrough squad.

Regarding maxims, I think they should be buffed with accuarcy and burst duration, but increased to 300mp to match their deployment independent of soviet infantry companies. Make the dshka better against armour and infantry and keep it as a doctrinal heavy mg, but at 360mp.

How about an increase in firing speed/reloading as part of the upgrade? That's another way to boost their DPS without having to give them different weapons.

Why you gotta hate on my m-42 game like that? Will this change even show in the targeting arc? I'd rather you keep the 7 man cons and give the canister shot back tbh.

Very upsetting =(

Honestly with the barrage costing muni the SU-76 is kind of a meh unit no matter what you do. If anything I'd rather it see a deploy/hunker down mode that turns it into a semi howitzer similar to the pack howi than just an AT gun on wheels.

M5/Quad changes are nice tho.

I'd rather it see a deploy/hunker down mode that turns it into a semi howitzer similar to the pack howi than just an AT gun on wheels.

That's a really interesting idea, and would make it A LOT more useful. That or lower the cost of barrages/make them cheaper as it gains vet.

6 shocktroopers ppsh's for penals sounds a bit strong, considering they get far better accuracy bonusses than shocks (+ for the last man). It would turn them into the highest close range dps unit in the game, but made out of glass.

Sounds better to me to just give them something like 6 conscript ppsh's and +0,25 armor if they pick up the weapon crate. Or 3 shock ppsh's + 0,25 armor.

In any case, I'd like to see a good player use it in a test game.

Don't they get 4 PPSHs?

Why you gotta hate on my m-42 game like that? Will this change even show in the targeting arc? I'd rather you keep the 7 man cons and give the canister shot back tbh.

Cannister Shot is sadly being abused in the live game by spamming 2-3 M-42s there is nothing that can counter them since en masse they decimate both infantry and armor alike.

Don't they get 4 PPSHs?

Nope, in 4.0 they got 6, I don't think that was changed.

"-Previously undocumented change: Penals picking up the crate replace their SVTs with Shocktrooper PpsH-41s. Takes up one weapon slot."

Cannister Shot is sadly being abused in the live game by spamming 2-3 M-42s there is nothing that can counter them since en masse they decimate both infantry and armor alike.

I know, I'm one of the people doing it. LV can't counter it, for sure, but indirect can -- though I do admit, it's a dick move to force people to spam mortars/ISGs to get around it; but then I encounter so much absolutely unapologetic 5+ squad blobbing that I ran out of care XD

That's a really interesting idea, and would make it A LOT more useful. That or lower the cost of barrages/make them cheaper as it gains vet.

I see people often refer to how Soviet units have 'utility' and so figured, sure why not, let's go with that. Other thing could be a target-weak point or treadshot style ability. Otherwise right now it's just not really worth it unless you're suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper desperate for AT and can't wait for t4 or back-tech to t2.

Tho you may just want to get penals and try to satchel instead at that point.

I'm surprised with the solution for conscripts and honestly don't think it's good enough.

First of all, I feel that the upgrade should come at tier 3 not 4, 4 is too late.

If weapon upgrades be dammed to conscripts then I think they should get a in cover fire power or defence buff (maybe they can have a buff being within their own territory?)

I get the upgrade would help new squads vet up but I still think they will still won't compete enough in late game.

Edit: just read that this takes a weapon slot when they already only have one...

Perhaps they could have a deffence buff being within their territory but when in cover, converts to a offensive buff allowing them to be somewhat offensive.

Just a thought.

Also, how the he'll would you be able to get all seven men on cover?