Thoughts on conscripts ? i think they need something.

Wait what? USF just got their tech slightly redesigned to make it more flexible, because the singular path tech was too punishing. That had nothing to do with any units underperforming.

Also a late game buff to Conscripts wouldn't require any buffs for Grenadiers, because they would only become more equal late game instead of LMG Grens stomping Cons.

And yet people complain that riflemen are UP and that is why USF got a number of other alternatives.

And their tech and build order was as flexible as OKW yet OKW did not get a revamped tech.

And yet people complain that riflemen are UP and that is why USF got a number of other alternatives.

And their tech and build order was as flexible as OKW yet OKW did not get a revamped tech.

Hardly. OKW gets suppression, indirect fire and an anti-tank gun from both teching paths.

And their tech and build order was as flexible as OKW yet OKW did not get a revamped tech.

Uhm, since when does OKW have its ATG and its HMG in mutually exclusive tech?

Actually you are mistaken conscripts have very good vet bonuses and used to become very good if they picked up weapons.

Neither of which help if you have to replace them. And holding out hoping for an enemy to drop a weapon for your unit to be halfway alright isn't good.

Cons design is still clung to them being cheap and effective in numbers but their pricing doesn't reflect that. The sidegrades would work if cons were cheap. You would pay less initially, make use of the map control and then when you have the resources upgrade for access to cheap improvements. That's the idea looking at their design
Instead we have "pay as Much as the rest for less, then pay more!"

They need to decide what they want from cons. Are they bodies for the front and nothing more? It supposed to scale, only die? Then price then as such. Make them replaceable.
Are they supposed to mobile utility and nothing more? Then make that affordable and bolster the utility they bring
Are they supposed to outlast everything? If so they need some intrinsic ability to resist enemy weapon upgrades that isn't vet.

There are many directions to go but they need to bloody decide what that direction is

I like the idea of a reinforce cost reduction at vet 3 or tied to tech.

One thing I've had issue with cons is that they bleed super hard especially later into the game. With a lower reinforcement cost they can be consider much more cost effective and cause less bleeding.

What about if tier 4 unlocked a global conscript upgrade

For every six conacripts you lose, total, across any squad, you get a squad of fresh conscripts.

1 pop cap, 6 models, no reinforcing, no retreating, worth 5exp.

If they're supposed to be fodder, let them be literal rifle toting fodder. Human wave, anybody?

What about if tier 4 unlocked a global conscript upgrade

For every six conacripts you lose, total, across any squad, you get a squad of fresh conscripts.

1 pop cap, 6 models, no reinforcing, no retreating, worth 5exp.

If they're supposed to be fodder, let them be literal rifle toting fodder. Human wave, anybody?

I once toyed with the idea of being rid of vet for cons entirely and tying improvement to side techs in each tier (would also create incentive side tech) to make them properly expendable and most importantly, replaceable. Their fully "upgraded" power level would obviously be below that of enemy squads but the ability to actually replace them and not have no means of making up for lost vet would be unique and create desire to actually use them

Neither of which help if you have to replace them. And holding out hoping for an enemy to drop a weapon for your unit to be halfway alright isn't good.

Cons design is still clung to them being cheap and effective in numbers but their pricing doesn't reflect that. The sidegrades would work if cons were cheap. You would pay less initially, make use of the map control and then when you have the resources upgrade for access to cheap improvements. That's the idea looking at their design
Instead we have "pay as Much as the rest for less, then pay more!"

They need to decide what they want from cons. Are they bodies for the front and nothing more? It supposed to scale, only die? Then price then as such. Make them replaceable.
Are they supposed to mobile utility and nothing more? Then make that affordable and bolster the utility they bring
Are they supposed to outlast everything? If so they need some intrinsic ability to resist enemy weapon upgrades that isn't vet.

There are many directions to go but they need to bloody decide what that direction is

I never claimed it was good, I was responding to the argument that:
"A proportionally large increase is almost meaningless on conscripts, because conscripts are an awful unit".

That is proven completely false by Vickers -K conscripts and PPsh conscripts.

And I will repeat that half of conscripts problems comes form the fact that other infantries have been buffed thru the roof leave them behind.

And I will repeat that half of conscripts problems comes form the fact that other infantries have been buffed thru the roof leave them behind.

Buffing conscripts is a much easier solution than nerfing all of the following:

Rifles
Tommies
Penals
Guards
Volks
Grens
Shock Troops
Sturmpioneers
Stormtroopers
Panzerfusiliers
Obersoldaten
Paratroopers
(Etc.)

Buffing conscripts is a much easier solution than nerfing all of the following:

Rifles
Tommies
Penals
Guards
Volks
Grens
Shock Troops
Sturmpioneers
Stormtroopers
Panzerfusiliers
Obersoldaten
Paratroopers
(Etc.)

not really.

What about if tier 4 unlocked a global conscript upgrade

For every six conacripts you lose, total, across any squad, you get a squad of fresh conscripts.

1 pop cap, 6 models, no reinforcing, no retreating, worth 5exp.

If they're supposed to be fodder, let them be literal rifle toting fodder. Human wave, anybody?

I think we could use that as part for cons redesign. Main problem for cons it's very high MP bleeding in lategame, where all germans infantry have veterancy and weapon upgrades. Why not to make next changes:

1. Soviet have passive ability to get fresh cons squad for every dead cons.
2. When you build T2 or T1 it will start with 16 as counter.
3. T3 to 14.
4. T4 to 12.

What about if tier 4 unlocked a global conscript upgrade

For every six conacripts you lose, total, across any squad, you get a squad of fresh conscripts.

1 pop cap, 6 models, no reinforcing, no retreating, worth 5exp.

If they're supposed to be fodder, let them be literal rifle toting fodder. Human wave, anybody?

God, no. I hated that kind of mechanic with Tommy in CoH1. And here you offer to leave conscripts unchanged. In the current state of conscripts, you need only one squad to throw an anti-tank grenade, I do not need more useless garbage under my feet.

God, no. I hated that kind of mechanic with Tommy in CoH1. And here you offer to leave conscripts unchanged. In the current state of conscripts, you need only one squad to throw an anti-tank grenade, I do not need more useless garbage under my feet.

If you are only building 1 and only for the AT nade you are effectively paying 365mp and 25 fuel for a snare. Seems excessive

If you are only building 1 and only for the AT nade you are effectively paying 365mp and 25 fuel for a snare. Seems excessive

You also get merge and sandbags.

You also get merge and sandbags.

Well I guess in that case they ARE worth 365mp and 25 fuel

Well I guess in that case they ARE worth 365mp and 25 fuel

I personally tend to built at least 1 conscript squad, and there is always rapid conscription....

I too usually build 1 con, but that's so I have map control while building a tier with the express purpose of not building another one.

Rapid conscription.... Now that's an ability I havnt seen in years. I do remember they nerfed it somewhat recently though, despite it not being used in forever...

I've seen the OST version with ostroppen used but nearly never the Soviet one. Pretty much says all about the quality of the unit coming from it...

i personally think conscript perform kind of okish stat wise to be honest. I often find myself using them as merge for my flamethrower going for one or 2 engineers to merge with. One should be carefull when buffing stock units like that.

When i play cons i usally buy map presence for blood until i can get smth that has a punch (flamethrower t70 maxims) so i definitly think you can make them work

But i feel like mentioned in this thread they lack utility. When i go penals its cheaper to just backtech towards mgs and paks then getting the cons upgrates. The inital field presence doesnt seem worth it to most players which i understand.

My solution would be to reduce cost of OHHRA to 15 mun, while reducing the cost of molotov to 15 at vet 1 or 2 and also bundleling the molo with at upgrate. That way one could actually use the abilites of the conscript without paying a premium price. Just as an example (sprint + faust = 35 mun) ohhra + at nade = 45 mun. Most of the times its just better planting mines getting flamethorwers then using cons abilities.

That way one could have an high utilty sqad (sandbags flame nade snare) while sacrificing in raw stats.

Basically cons would play in 2 ways then, rushing the map and digging in (sandbags) while also denying cover, and 2nd ohhra + ppsh if you go for those commanders

The inital field presence doesnt seem worth it to most players which i understand.

Actually, its the initial presence that is ok for them.

Its late game lack of any scaling that would allow them to contest in any way literally any weapon upgraded squad that is the problem.
Vet was buffed twice in attempt to address it, but as evidenced by their late game performance and 100% reliance on doctrines to be of any use past 5th minute, it failed.

Actually, its the initial presence that is ok for them.

Its late game lack of any scaling that would allow them to contest in any way literally any weapon upgraded squad that is the problem.
Vet was buffed twice in attempt to address it, but as evidenced by their late game performance and 100% reliance on doctrines to be of any use past 5th minute, it failed.

Idk. Early game they really don't offer enough field prsence for what they bring. They are matched in presence by both axis factions but they can take that infantry to the late game and they don't need to pump a whack of fuel and manpower into them either.
Like i said earlier in the thread, even a con heavy build + upgrades runs you more than a rifle squad but most certainly doesn't bring the flexibility or actual power.