Thoughts on Panzergrenadiers

I'm like Distrofio here, neutral on a buff. I almost always choose the Pak over them. However, I 'd tread on the side of caution in making any changes that makes them viable to be used as mainline infantry. There's a whole thread on adjusting conscripts that bring valid points at to which units aught to be mainline. 5 man squads with STG upgrades and Pshrek upgrades with nade, sounds a lot like the OKW Volks problem that was patched out. (admittedly before I purchased the game). Pgrens have a supporting role and will hopefully always be considered support.

Pgrens should be an elite infantry, currently they feel like a very good mainline infantry like penals. They get smashed by any elite allied infantry, I would much rather see their lethality increased than a cost reduction. I can't see much incentive to get them solely just from a cost reduction, they will still be a unit that bleeds you for not much benefit.

Pgrens should be an elite infantry, currently they feel like a very good mainline infantry like penals. They get smashed by any elite allied infantry, I would much rather see their lethality increased than a cost reduction. I can't see much incentive to get them solely just from a cost reduction, they will still be a unit that bleeds you for not much benefit.

Why would you pgren spam to beat penals spam?

Pgren are not mainline inf nor elite inf. They are at most a qcq-midrange AI specialist. They are already lethal enough. They bleed that much because you should use them more with your brain rather you balls

Headquarters Unit after Battlephase: My biggest personal issue with PGs over all others, is timing. When I need to field the MG 42 along with 3-4 Grenadiers in a traditional build before teching up, I really don't need to be fielding more infantry when LMGs allow the Ostheer infantry to compete during the later stages of the mid-game and allow me to hand back.

What if you made T2 buildable from the start and locked the 222 and 251 behind Battle Phase 1?

You'd be able to deploy PGrens straight away, but paying the manpower cost of T2 up front and the higher cost of PGrens means you'll have roughly two fewer squads on the field than the T2 build would if you try to mainline them.

What do you think?

What if you made T2 buildable from the start and locked the 222 and 251 behind Battle Phase 1?

You'd be able to deploy PGrens straight away, but paying the manpower cost of T2 up front and the higher cost of PGrens means you'll have roughly two fewer squads on the field than the T2 build would if you try to mainline them.

What do you think?

Then you have autowin vs brits.

Then you have autowin vs brits.

Would you?

For a start, PGren spam means no snares, which means the Universal Carrier's free to do its thing.

Machine guns don't care if they're fighting Grens or PGrens.

UKF'll also be a unit up. T2 + 3x PGren is 1220. 1220 / 280 (the most expensive UKF T1 unit) is 4.36.

Then when you consider UKF's starting unit is an Infantry Section and OST's is a Pioneer, they're effectively two up.

Would you take 4x Infantry Section 1x Universal Carrier or 3x Panzergrenadier x1 Pioneer?

Would you?

For a start, PGren spam means no snares, which means the Universal Carrier's free to do its thing.

Machine guns don't care if they're fighting Grens or PGrens.

UKF'll also be a unit up. T2 + 3x PGren is 1220. 1220 / 280 (the most expensive UKF T1 unit) is 4.36.

Then when you consider UKF's starting unit is an Infantry Section and OST's is a Pioneer, they're effectively two up.

Would you take 4x Infantry Section 1x Universal Carrier or 3x Panzergrenadier x1 Pioneer?

Pgren every time. You get twice the DPS of a gren with better RA to boot.

Make no mistake. Even though they're a tad more expensive than grens you're getting a much better unit that doesn't bleed nearly as much in infantry fighting. The current Pgrens need to be locked behind tech in order to be balanced, but I do think they could come 30 seconds to a minute earlier. You can't survive the stall if you want a Pgren as a large part of your composition. Even if you do survive you're at a point in the game where strong infantry doesn't matter as much as strong vehicles.

I suggested manpower reduction on the t2 building earlier, but I actually think some of the fuel needs to be shifted to the 222 and half track. Manpower isn't the problem. You'll suffer a bit under 3 grens, which you should, but you'll be able to save up the manpower. You just won't have any fuel coming in to build t2 with.

I really like pzgrens, they are either hit or miss though. Alot is micro to make them work, which is good. But sometimes even applying the correct micro (subjective!) They cant pay themselves off.

Idk small buff for staying near vehicles or slightly less mp (10, max 20mp)

Would you?

For a start, PGren spam means no snares, which means the Universal Carrier's free to do its thing.

Machine guns don't care if they're fighting Grens or PGrens.

UKF'll also be a unit up. T2 + 3x PGren is 1220. 1220 / 280 (the most expensive UKF T1 unit) is 4.36.

Then when you consider UKF's starting unit is an Infantry Section and OST's is a Pioneer, they're effectively two up.

Would you take 4x Infantry Section 1x Universal Carrier or 3x Panzergrenadier x1 Pioneer?

Do you axis fanboys deal exclusively with absolutes?
2 grens/3 osttruppen and 2 PGs very early or HMG42 and PGs very early would be pretty much IWIN combination, suppress anything, mow it with PGs, rinse and repeat.

PGs biggest problem lies with their usability and difficulty to approach targets frontally without cover(which they shouldn't do, they aren't shock troops), not stats and changing timing to earlier pretty much warrants nerfs to performance.

They also are -NOT- a squad that should open the fight, grens or other unit should and get behind the cover, then PGs should move in.

They also are -NOT- a squad that should open the fight, grens or other unit should and get behind the cover, then PGs should move in.

For me its the other way around. Try to park them in the best cover possible ,(to avoid -25% dps through model drop) and just let them dish out damage.
I only move them in when enemy is suppressed or outgunned/flanked

What about just a received accuracy buff? They were too powerful very early in the game's life, but they just got nerfed into oblivion. They're just too squishy to deal with vetted allied infantry, which is what they're facing when they hit the field and they definitely lose too much DPS from losing a squad member in comparison to grens with LMGs or rifles with bars. Unless they're in green cover, they seem to lose to everything except maybe a vanilla conscript.

If need be nerf the veterancy bonuses then.

Do you axis fanboys deal exclusively with absolutes?
...

A great way to promote a constructive debate.

What if you made T2 buildable from the start and locked the 222 and 251 behind Battle Phase 1?

You'd be able to deploy PGrens straight away, but paying the manpower cost of T2 up front and the higher cost of PGrens means you'll have roughly two fewer squads on the field than the T2 build would if you try to mainline them.

What do you think?

I believe that would be too soon. Their deployment at earliest could be around anywhere from 3-5 minutes into the game that doesn't include skipping T1 builds. They already have a number of counters also available before they arrive and at least they have to fight at mid-short range to be effective.

And Katitof, none of those early units can deal with the UC or MGs outside flanks and your idea requires a back-tech to T1 so there is cost and time involved there. If Sturms and Volks cannot take on a UC in the first 2-3 minutes of the game, I doubt stock PGs would either as you need snares to be effective versus a well-microed one until AT or 222s hit the field. I don't see fanboyism in the post.

From what I gather, though, utility and abilities, such as the Infantry Doctrine's PG Training, seem to be the way the go such as their passive when near armor which gives them bonuses or more things to do that isn't just 'More DPS' which is their main purpose at the moment and all they do.

Miragefla well describe the issue lying behind Pgrens.

I would also add from my part that the Higher gamemode the smaller inpact on the game grens have. Of course many depends on a map, if it's more open players prefer go more heavily into the light vehicules or simply go grens with lmg upgrade to just "A" move them in a famous tacitcal groups called "blobs".


Worth pointing out that:
1. their reinforcing cost is slighly too big. It's not so noticeable on 1v1 but on 2v2 for example getting even 2 squads of those gives you horrible bleed on MP,
2. require specific tactic which is less effective that simple gren blob, they can't fill the role of mainline infantry,
3. G43 is pointless. STGs are already good on mid range so only point it would make them more distance unit. I would assume that it should make them a long range elite infantry after the upgrade but sadly they aren't,
4. ally infantry has a lot of upgrades (bars, brens, dps, thompsons) to make their infantry more and more effective. Pgrens don't have such a thing. Cost is only 340 MP and there is no way to increase their value expect simple vetUnits like Pgrens should be a elite infantry that

From what i expect from a unit like pgrens is to fill a gap that's left in loosing a squads in mid game to replace looses by more elite units. Sadly pgrens aren't shocktroops and loosing a single model gives you -25% in efficiency on the battlefield,

From what I gather, though, utility and abilities, such as the Infantry Doctrine's PG Training, seem to be the way the go such as their passive when near armor which gives them bonuses or more things to do that isn't just 'More DPS'.

It should be. But would you just move the ability from a german infantry commander for nothing on it's place or would it be something diffrent?

Other thing could be:
- giving ostheer +10 more starting fuel and increase the cost of T1 to +10 fuel. Therefore skipping T1 would be a more temping strat. In effect of early pgrens available, they should probably be tone down and offer them sort of performance upgrade. Also the question is how light vehicule rush would work then though.

I believe that would be too soon. Their deployment at earliest could be around anywhere from 3-5 minutes into the game that doesn't include skipping T1 builds. They already have a number of counters also available before they arrive and at least they have to fight at mid-short range to be effective...

Question is should "semi-elite" infantries be available earlier? because currently they are and there are faction that can field an army with core being "semi-elite" and "elite" infantries.

If one want to these unit to be available earlier one should probably tone them down and offer them weapon upgrade locked behind tech similar to mainline infatry.

From what I gather, though, utility and abilities, such as the Infantry Doctrine's PG Training, seem to be the way the go such as their passive when near armor which gives them bonuses or more things to do that isn't just 'More DPS' which is their main purpose at the moment and all they do.

That is a good solution to increase diversity of built orders.

For me its the other way around. Try to park them in the best cover possible ,(to avoid -25% dps through model drop) and just let them dish out damage.
I only move them in when enemy is suppressed or outgunned/flanked

Its also correct use as long as you don't try to go for long range.

And Katitof, none of those early units can deal with the UC or MGs outside flanks and your idea requires a back-tech to T1 so there is cost and time involved there. If Sturms and Volks cannot take on a UC in the first 2-3 minutes of the game, I doubt stock PGs would either as you need snares to be effective versus a well-microed one until AT or 222s hit the field. I don't see fanboyism in the post.

I thought Ostruppen didn't need anymore T1 to get pfaust.

I thought Ostruppen didn't need anymore T1 to get pfaust.

They need either T1 or T2. Grenadiers need T1 to be up to pfaust.

Panzergrenadier - involves interaction with the Panzer, can give the 1st level of veterancy ability that increases the protection of the PG near the tank or something like that.

Panzergrenadier - involves interaction with the Panzer, can give the 1st level of veterancy ability that increases the protection of the PG near the tank or something like that.

I think I would start with 10% damage reduction when near a vehicle and go from there. It's unique and more encompassing than target size and also hopefully allows them to better support the armour.