Why does the Firefly have to suck so much?

Things are a bit more complicated since there also time to aim and wind up wind down and not only reload.

On the other hand you still do not calculate Tulips or the fact that FF once vetted can kill a medium with 3 shots instead of 4.

In addition FF is a T3 TD with less tech cost.

In the end of the day do UKF need a stronger TD? It does not seem so since they have great ATG, great hand held AT and many other AT assets.

I mean they have roughly as as many assets as the Axis factions have. Up until recently they didn't even have a snare which is why they got bullied so hard by enemy vehicles.

The painfully slow turret rotation and tank speed makes it incredibly vulnerable. Brits have a great ATG gun but its no pak40 with stun shots, and i often find myself losing to a STUG w/ the vet 1 ability quite often.

Then we move on to fighting OKW, who have a faust on their spammed mainline infantry, and are now known for spamming 3-4 raks in a ground which will destroy a Firefly quickly as it won't have time to run away.. and then the raks just hit retreat and call it a day.

Then we got the HEAT shells from the OKW commander where the JP4 is just having a field day vs british armor.

I don't know.. I share some of these frustrations. I feel the FF performance could remain the same if it wasn't so expensive to field. It's a solid tank, but it is very easily countered. All other dedicated AT are at least fairly fast even without a turret.. but the FF is something to babysit. It's like a jackson almost without the advantages of having the jacksons speed, turret rotation, HVAP or repair crew. I dont find the rockets that great, I'd trade them even tho they are nifty.

FF is still one of the best TD cause it's consistent (if is not moving) it has great accuracy, access to tulips, good pen, rotating turret, 200dmg, 60 range and great vet(one of the few TDs that still has damage buff with vet)

build 2 of them and they are a fucking menace

FF is still one of the best TD cause it's consistent (if is not moving) it has great accuracy, access to tulips, good pen, rotating turret, 200dmg, 60 range and great vet(one of the few TDs that still has damage buff with vet)

build 2 of them and they are a fucking menace

They better be, you're paying much more then for JagdTiger.

Also, since you missed like a year of changes and balance patches, TDs costs, performance and most importantly pop cap was rebalanced in a way that its incredibly difficult to get more then 1, unless TDs are going to be your whole and only armor.

They better be, you're paying much more then for JagdTiger.

Also, since you missed like a year of changes and balance patches, TDs costs, performance and most importantly pop cap was rebalanced in a way that its incredibly difficult to get more then 1, unless TDs are going to be your whole and only armor.

2 ff simply close the armor problem u have, 1 work as a TD just fine, and yes 2 ff are better than 1 elephant when dealing with armor u lose 10 range and frontal armor for more damage tulips and more hp

1 elephant needs 3 shoots to kill a medium 1 tank, 2 firefly need 2 (300 damage vs 400)

ff still deals 200 damage x shoot it (240 at vet 3) adding piat and at nades make them very good

Changes to pop for TDs:
WEHR
• Puma: 8 to 7
• StuG G: 8 to 10
• Panther:16 to 18

OKW
• Command Panther: 18 to 19
• Jagpanzer IV: 14 to 15
• Puma: 8 to 7

USF
• Jackson: 14 to 16

SOV
• SU-85: 12 to 15

BRIT
• Firefly: 14 to 16

Similar changes where made to tanks

30 T1, 120 T2. Costs for unlocking their T1 optional unit, cost for their T2 packages. Bolster, weapon racks and grenades. In total their full tech tree costs over 200, much like everyone else. Not the most expensive, but comprable.

"much like everyone else"

Do you even know what the costs are for everyone else?

OKW for example (including all side tech as you did in your example) comes to 265 fuel. OKW starts with 5 so this is really 260

UKF (to get a FF and a Croc) comes to 205. UKF starts with 20, so this is 185

Tell me, how at all are these two values comparable?

You have to factor in tulips DPS also...
You have to factor in the bonus from commander
You have to factor in that FF has the long mid range than most (if not all) TDs.
You have to factor in the possibility war speed/Hammer trucking (or fast repair)

Yeah but does that actually make it worth the pricetag? It's not a bad TD, but it's got nothing really special about it other than tulips, which aren't really that good anymore. Waste of muni IMO. The commander bonus is kinda nice but doesn't actually do that much. Like, when have you ever been like "oh thank god I have a commander on my firefly so glad I have like 10 extra sight range or whatever". Don't get me wrong, it's a nice bonus, but especially on the firefly it's kind of lackluster since you really should never have it so far up that it needs to self spot anyway because it's so slow.

I mean, it works, but I'd much rather have literally any other TD.

Yeah but does that actually make it worth the pricetag? It's not a bad TD, but it's got nothing really special about it other than tulips, which aren't really that good anymore. Waste of muni IMO. The commander bonus is kinda nice but doesn't actually do that much. Like, when have you ever been like "oh thank god I have a commander on my firefly so glad I have like 10 extra sight range or whatever". Don't get me wrong, it's a nice bonus, but especially on the firefly it's kind of lackluster since you really should never have it so far up that it needs to self spot anyway because it's so slow.

I mean, it works, but I'd much rather have literally any other TD.

The two main advantages to the firefly IMO are the synergy with other units and the damage per shot.

Right out the gate the firefly can 2 shot a luchs or puma, 3 shot a stug or 5 shot a panther. With exception of the latter, the firefly kills the rest faster than the other two main allied TDs.
In addition, the specific damage amount particularly with vet means that paired up, firefly have a very potent punch-able to 4 shot a panther.


Are they worth 155 fuel? Perhaps not, I could see a small 5-10 fuel reduction and they are manpower heavy as has been pointed out. But I don't think they "suck", they are slightly overpriced.

Whats the idea behind it?

Stats of medium TDs in COH2

DPS (damage per second)
M10: 40
JP4: 37,2
Jackson: 36.5
Stug: 35,5
SU-76: 30.7
SU-85: 29.6
Firefly: 25 (laughable DPS considering the price)

can i ask u how u did the math ? cause jackson has 6.5 reload ttime and 160 damage that's 24.6 dps

fire fly has 25 dps as u said tho

can i ask u how u did the math ? cause jackson has 6.5 reload ttime and 160 damage that's 24.6 dps

fire fly has 25 dps as u said tho

DPS of ballistic weapons without any info on target size/armor and HP is rather misleading.

DPS of ballistic weapons without any info on target size/armor and HP is rather misleading.

yes but the math is still wrong

time to kill are wrong too as ff needs only 5 shots to kill panther while other tank needs 6


did the op just made up numbers to make the FF look bad ?

yes but the math is still wrong

time to kill are wrong too as ff needs only 5 shots to kill panther while other tank needs 6


did the op just made up numbers to make the FF look bad ?

DPS of these vehicles max range of each weapon vs PzIV target 22 armor 180, as calculate without taking into account overkill.

M10: 14
JP4: 27
Jackson: 19
Stug: 25
SU-76: 13
SU-85: 25
Firefly: 21

things worth noting:

Armor is rather low that is why stug and JP have good DPS

M10 gets allot more DPS when closing in, similar to Puma.

FF does overkill but get damage with veterancy gaining 1 less shot vs mediums. In addition tulip allow it to kill a medium with 1 reload. Tulip are good to protect vs armor that close in to FF. Accuracy bonus from commander not taken into account.

SU-76 get more damage and penetration with veterancy while having low XP value and its DPS increases allot. Also has the ability to barrage which become allot stronger the extra damage.

DPS of these vehicles max range of each weapon vs PzIV target 22 armor 180, as calculate without taking into account overkill.

M10: 14
JP4: 27
Jackson: 19
Stug: 25
SU-76: 13
SU-85: 25
Firefly: 21

things worth noting:

Armor is rather low that is why stug and JP have good DPS

M10 gets allot more DPS when closing in, similar to Puma.

FF does overkill but get damage with veterancy gaining 1 less shot vs mediums. In addition tulip allow it to kill a medium with 1 reload. Tulip are good to protect vs armor that close in to FF. Accuracy bonus from commander not taken into account.

SU-76 get more damage and penetration with veterancy while having low XP value and its DPS increases allot. Also has the ability to barrage which become allot stronger the extra damage.

i meant the OP literally pulled the stats out of his ass to make the FF look bad
DPS (damage per second)
M10: 40 -> 27 (low pen and ok range)
JP4: 37,2 -> 32 (low pen)
Jackson: 36.5 -> 24
Stug: 35,5 -> 30 (low pen and range)
SU-76: 30.7 -> 23 (low pen)
SU-85: 29.6 -> 28
Firefly: 25
only the FF is right as it's 200/8

if u argument is pen, u cant count it simply cause u have to count the accuracy too at that point, just do the dps for similar pen, accuracy and range tank (su 85, m36 and FF) and then state the difference in accuracy7pen

I remember how once I encountered that one russian guy maining brits in 2v2 around year or so ago. He pulled out both churchill and firefly on his side, and i got 2 panthers. Only then I really understood the meaning of "soaking damage". That Firefly hitted me so hard that even with infantry support I wasn't able to rush that combo(plz note, brits don't have snares at that time).

Main point is - there is little matter in numbers, when opponent can play out their cards better. Firefly is a good TD, especially when paired with something to soak up damage and slow down incoming dives. She is not better or worse than her counterparts, she is just different. In-game math is cool, but we gathered here not for math exircises, but for "fun and engaging" gameplay.

IMO, it is mostly L2P
/tread

DPS numbers are originally all wrong because it's only counting the reload value without looking at fire aim, ready aim, wind up and wind down.

DPS numbers are originally all wrong because it's only counting the reload value without looking at fire aim, ready aim, wind up and wind down.

yea pointed it to him the shout chat hope he updates it and realize that the FF is one of the best TD for consistency (45 mid range instead of 30)

DPS numbers are originally all wrong because it's only counting the reload value without looking at fire aim, ready aim, wind up and wind down.

Either way DPS is a meaningless stat to take for a raw comparison. It doesn't tell us anything because there are a great many other factors that contribute to the offensive power itself (penetration, accuracy, turret y/n, abilities, alpha damage) and to the overal effectiveness of the vehicle.

Vipper has come closest to providing a meaningful comparison, taking penetration and accuracy into account and comparing them for a single range against a single target. But even this comparison is flawed on its own (because it inevitably misses a lot of other stuff) and can only be used as an indication, not as a full fledged argument.

Show Spoiler

Either way DPS is a meaningless stat to take for a raw comparison. It doesn't tell us anything because there are a great many other factors that contribute to the offensive power itself (penetration, accuracy, turret y/n, abilities, alpha damage) and to the overal effectiveness of the vehicle.

Vipper has come closest to providing a meaningful comparison, taking penetration and accuracy into account and comparing them for a single range against a single target. But even this comparison is flawed on its own (because it inevitably misses a lot of other stuff) and can only be used as an indication, not as a full fledged argument.

Show Spoiler

I've already said that in a previous post. But if people are going to talk about a meaningless stat, at least they should do so correctly.

I updated the stats but the Firefly is still the worst in terms of TTK an DPS. So yeah my argument still stands.

I think if anything was to happen to the firefly it'd be lowering back to it's original price of 145 fuel as it has been nerfed since it was raised.

Having said that imo, it's one of the better TD's if not the best, with it's only downside being that it can get overwhelmed when alone and unvetted. At vet 2 with hammer and tulips it's easily the most versatile and powerful tank destroyers in the game.

-It can fire tulips after firing for an extra 120 burst damage and blind/stun
thing (for 320-360 damage).
-It has excellent Veterancy
-It can chase and dive/flee with war speed. (Hammer)
-Once it lands a shot it self spots FOR 12 SECONDS!!!! (Hammer)
-It nearly always lands it's shots.
-Do I even need to mention the command vehicle buff? Vet 2/3 fireflies
dealing 240 damage every 4 seconds is cheesey as hell.
-Honestly if you have 2 fireflies and you get a cheeky snare with a mine
or sappers on an enemy tank, there's no way it's getting out.

What it may marginally lack in raw stats without vet, it more than makes up for with the rest of what I mentioned. Did anyone think perhaps the reason it's raw stats are lacking is because otherwise it would be ridiculously OP when it get's everything else?