Why does the Firefly have to suck so much?

Whats the idea behind it?

Stats of medium TDs in COH2 (updated)

DPS (damage per second)
JP4: 32
Jackson: 24.43
Stug: 30.47
SU-85: 28.42
Firefly: 24.24 (worst DPS but highest price)

Firefly TTK against P4: 24,75 seconds
Jackson TTK against P4: 19.65 seconds
SU 85 TTK against P4: 16,95 seconds

Firefly TTK against Panther: 33 seconds
Jackson TTK against Panther: 32.75 seconds
SU-85 TTK against Panther: 28,25 seconds

Firefly TTK against Tiger: 41,25 seconds
Jackson TTK against Tiger: 39,3 seconds
SU-85 TTK against Tiger: 33,9 seconds


Penetration
Jackson: 260/240/220
SU-85: 240/230/220
Firefly: 260/240/210 (less far penetration than cheaper SU85 and Jackson, wtf?)
JP4: 200/185/175
Stug: 200/185/175



Accuracy
JP4: .6/.5/.4
Stug: .6/.5/.4
Firefly: .6/.5/.4 (best allied accuracy but nothing special after the nerfs, gets slightly better with Tank Commander)
SU-85: .55/.45/.4
Jackson: .5/.45/.35



Mobility

Jackson: 6.5/3
Stug: 6/2.1
SU85: 5.7/2.1
JP4: 5.5/1.9
Firefly: 5.3/1.6 -> worst mobility, super slow turret


Target Size
JP4: 17
SU85: 18
Stug: 20
Firefly 23 -> slow as fuck but still huge target size, easy to hit
Jackson: 24

Price

Stug: 280/90
SU85: 350/130
JP4: 400/135
Jackson: 350/140
Firefly: 440MP/155 fuel -> most expensive by far, not even counting the muni that you need to make the Firefly useable


It´s just insane how unbalanced this is.

JP4 gets camo and extra HP at vet 1 and 2. Has insane ROF (especially with vet) and good armor but lacks penetration.

Jackson gets HVAP rounds at vet 1 and has no weakness other than target size which doesn´t matter that much for a TD. Considering all the other buffs USF got the Jackson should actually be toned a bit more IMO.

SU 85 has self spotting at vet0. Is vulnerable to flanks but makes up for it by being relatively cheap, having good penetration and small target size.

SU 76 can barrage infantry and is super cheap, yet very fragile and with terrible accuracy yet way too high penetration. Why not buff accuracy and lower penetration so it becomes a reliable LV counter but less effective against medium and heavy tanks?

M10 has extra speed and HVAP.

Stug has TWP and doctrinal access to spotting scopes and smoke.

Firefly has?? The possibility to dump all your munis into Tulips that often do very little after the nerfs?

You have to factor in tulips DPS also...
You have to factor in the bonus from commander
You have to factor in that FF has the long mid range than most (if not all) TDs.
You have to factor in the possibility war speed/Hammer trucking (or fast repair)

You have to calculate tulips DPS also...
You have to calculate the bonus from commander

You can´t calculate Tulip DPS because of many factors. You should know that. First of all upgrading FF to be able to use Tulips costs lots of muni. Second shooting Tulips costs a ton of muni. Third you never know how many rockets actually hit.

The tank commander gives +10% sight (not listed anyways) and accuracy bonus. It doesn´t make the Firefly a good TD in any way.

It's laughable how this comparison doesn't even try to hide that it's biased.

You did not include the range which is the selling point of the Firefly.

You just tried to find something positive in every other TD and you tried to find something negative in the Firefly at any costs. Example here:

It´s just insane how unbalanced this is.
JP4 gets camo and extra HP at vet 1 and 2.
Jackson gets HVAP rounds at vet 1.
SU 85 has self spotting at vet0.
SU 76 can barrage infantry.
M10 has extra speed and HVAP. Stug has TWP.
Firefly has?? The possibility to dump all your munis into Tulips that often do very little after the nerfs?

Why do you try to make every other ability look good while you try to make Tulips look way worse than they really are? With the Firefly's range you get a safe first shot (which the Firefly usually always hits, despite the "nerfs") and after the impact you fire the Tulips which, if both hit,do the same damage again and stun the tank for several seconds. This means that e.g. a Panzer IV loses half its health and mobility for a few seconds before it can do anything which results in a retreat.

Are we just going to completely ignore that a Firefly at vet 3 can 3-shot medium tanks? Or that it 2-shots light vehicles to begin with? Or that it needs 1-2 shots less to kill heavies such as the Elefant, the Tiger or the King Tiger?

A pair of them is significantly more dangerous than a pair of other tank destroyers because of its 200-240 alpha damage.


Also it does not exist in a vacuum. The Brits also have the best Allied hand-held AT (PIAT) and arguably the best or second best ATG.

Firefly has 60 range, just like any other TD. So what´s the selling point here? Other than having slightly longer medium range which gives you slightly more pen and acc in a small range are between 30-45.

Firefly has 60 range, just like any other TD. So what´s the selling point here? Other than having slightly longer medium range which gives you slightly more pen and acc in a small range are between 30-45.

Stug and Panther have range 50.

Just because SU-85 and M36 have been overbuffed that does not mean FF is bad.

You can´t calculate Tulip DPS because of many factors. You should know that. First of all upgrading FF to be able to use Tulips costs lots of muni. Second shooting Tulips costs a ton of muni. Third you never know how many rockets actually hit.

The tank commander gives +10% sight (not listed anyways) and accuracy bonus. It doesn´t make the Firefly a good TD in any way.

Actually FF can kill a medium with 1 reload if it manages to land tullips and it so accurate that at vet 3 it has almost 100% chance vs a kubel at range 60.

Actually 45 vision and higher accuracy does make FF better.

Stug and Panther have range 50.

Just because SU-85 and M36 have been overbuffed that does not mean FF is bad.

Actually FF can kill a medium with 1 reload if it manages to land tullips and it so accurate that at vet 3 it has almost 100% chance vs a kubel at range 60.

Actually 45 vision and higher accuracy does make FF better.

I did not mention the Panther and the Stug + M10 are in a whole different price area so the comparison sucks. All the other TDs have 60 range just like the FF.

Slightly more vision and slightly more accuracy does make the FF better but not by enough to justify the price.

SU 85 is not overbuffed, without it Soviets might aswell surrender once late game Axis tanks hit. It´s just the Jackson that is too good because of mobility and penetration.

Tullips can be dodged by MOVING your stupid tank. Who in his right state of mind would let his medium tank eat both Tullip rockets. The Kübel thing is a joke and you know that.

Best thing is okw somehow have two non doc strong tank destroyers any reason whats going on here? I know before jagpazer was in t1 but now its not make sense. Maybe japanzer should be buffed and doctrinal or better idea panther should be doctinal we have already one faction with panther so why need two? Anyway sorry for offtopic i think firefly is good maybe only need slight fuel decrease or speed buff.

I know that vanilla firefly is a bit meh -and therefore this thread makes sense- but have you ever seen a vet 3 firefly with the aura bonus from a british command vehicle? no? I recommend checking it out in the cheat commands mod, it's actually quite tasty

I think it has 100% pen chance vs panther then, 4 second reload, 240dmg per shot and almost guaranteed hit

You need Range, Armour and Turret Rotation too.

They're all relevant to TDs.

Are we just going to completely ignore that a Firefly at vet 3 can 3-shot medium tanks? Or that it 2-shots light vehicles to begin with? Or that it needs 1-2 shots less to kill heavies such as the Elefant, the Tiger or the King Tiger?

A pair of them is significantly more dangerous than a pair of other tank destroyers because of its 200-240 alpha damage.


Also it does not exist in a vacuum. The Brits also have the best Allied hand-held AT (PIAT) and arguably the best or second best ATG.

It will still take the Firefly way more time to hit 3 shots on a medium tank than it takes any vet 3/5 TD to hit 4. As a matter of fact the Firefly has still 6 seconds reload at vet 3 while Jacksons, SU76, Stug and the JP4 can reload under 3 seconds. So do the maths please.

You need Range, Armour and Turret Rotation too.

They're all relevant to TDs.

Range is 60 for most TDs as we all know. Only exception the cheap M10 and Stug. Firefly has super slow turret rotation as everyone who played this game before knows. I didn´t bother with armor because only the JP4 is clearly superior here to the other ones listed as it has 230 and 800 HP at vet 2.

It's laughable how this comparison doesn't even try to hide that it's biased.

You did not include the range which is the selling point of the Firefly.

How?
60 range is standard for allied TDs.

Its like saying Maxims selling point is 45 range when all other HMGs also have that range and still perform much better and/or cheaper.

Best thing is okw somehow have two non doc strong tank destroyers any reason whats going on here? I know before jagpazer was in t1 but now its not make sense. Maybe japanzer should be buffed and doctrinal or better idea panther should be doctinal we have already one faction with panther so why need two? Anyway sorry for offtopic i think firefly is good maybe only need slight fuel decrease or speed buff.

JP4 is one of the best TDs in COH2 as you could see if you bother´d to read the stats. It has way more durability with 230 armor and 800 HP at vet 2 than ANY other medium TD. It also has camo which is super useful when fighting enemy TDs because it allows you to always get the first shot off. The JP4 also beats any TD in a 1v1 fight because of higher ROF, extra VP, low target size and strong accuracy. The only vehicles it sucks against are IS2s but then they are not supposed to coutner heavy tanks and you have a high pen Panther for the job.

Range is 60 for most TDs as we all know. Only exception the cheap M10 and Stug. Firefly has super slow turret rotation as everyone who played this game before knows. I didn´t bother with armor because only the JP4 is clearly superior here to the other ones listed as it has 230 and 800 HP at vet 2.

If memory serves, the Jackson's armour is pathetic, whereas the Firefly has the durability of a USF Sherman. It's a small point in its favour, but a point nonetheless.

The Firefly's turret rotation is so slow it might as well be a casemate. A casemate might even be better given if the Firefly tracks something it takes forever to aim front again. Turret rotation is very much a point in Team Jackson's favour.



UKF T2 in general is pretty lackluster. The Centaur's decent, but the Cromwell's a slightly faster Sherman with no .50 cal or pintle mount, and the Firefly is not an efficient brawler.

Snares have done a lot for it though. Support it with engineers and a P4 can't circle strafe it to death.

JP4 is one of the best TDs in COH2 as you could see if you bother´d to read the stats. It has way more durability with 230 armor and 800 HP at vet 2 than ANY other medium TD. It also has camo which is super useful when fighting enemy TDs because it allows you to always get the first shot off. The JP4 also beats any TD in a 1v1 fight because of higher ROF, extra VP, low target size and strong accuracy. The only vehicles it sucks against are IS2s but then they are not supposed to coutner heavy tanks and you have a high pen Panther for the job.

The idea that JP4 is best TD because it can counter enemy TD is simply flawed. TD's role is to counter tanks and the performance vs TDs rather irrelevant.

JP is too expensive as a counter mediums and has too low penetration vs heavies.

I did not mention the Panther and the Stug + M10 are in a whole different price area so the comparison sucks. All the other TDs have 60 range just like the FF.

Saying that all TD have range 60 as is simply false, pls move on.

Slightly more vision and slightly more accuracy does make the FF better but not by enough to justify the price.

SU 85 is not overbuffed, without it Soviets might aswell surrender once late game Axis tanks hit. It´s just the Jackson that is too good because of mobility and penetration.

Tullips can be dodged by MOVING your stupid tank. Who in his right state of mind would let his medium tank eat both Tullip rockets. The Kübel thing is a joke and you know that.

Su-85 base stat where buffed allot while its veterancy bonuses nerf only a bit. That makes SU-85 OP when vetted. It penetration values are simply over the top.

Best thing is okw somehow have two non doc strong tank destroyers any reason whats going on here? I know before jagpazer was in t1 but now its not make sense. Maybe japanzer should be buffed and doctrinal or better idea panther should be doctinal we have already one faction with panther so why need two? Anyway sorry for offtopic i think firefly is good maybe only need slight fuel decrease or speed buff.

OKW --- UKF

JP4 ---> FireFly
Panther ---> COMET

There is acually symetrical design and both factions have their counterparts. Sorry but your argument is valid. Plz don't sugest removing basic units from the game, factions alraedy has very small number of units. Performance of those units is diffrent topic though.

The idea that JP4 is best TD because it can counter enemy TD is simply flawed. TD's role is to counter tanks and the performance vs TDs rather irrelevant.

JP is too expensive as a counter mediums and has too low penetration vs heavies.


Saying that all TD have range 60 as is simply false, pls move on.


Su-85 base stat where buffed allot while its veterancy bonuses nerf only a bit. That makes SU-85 OP when vetted. It penetration values are simply over the top.

Why is the JP4 too expensive to counter medium tanks? It costs roughly the same as a Su85 and less than Jackson and Firefly. It's also next to impossible for Allied medium tanks to do much damage to it because of 230 frontal armor. Unlike allied TDs that all get penned at a high percentage by P4s

TD's role is to counter tanks and the performance vs TDs rather irrelevant.

I'll remind you about this every single time you'll complain about Panther vs TDs again the future.

JP is too expensive as a counter mediums and has too low penetration vs heavies.

Its price is very in line with TDs of this tier. It also has amazing vet that makes it most survivable 60 range TD. Its perfectly fine counter to mediums and as long as OKW has panther, no, its penetration is not too low vs heavies, because its not meant to engage them, you have specialist vehicle for that in the same tier.

Su-85 base stat where buffed allot while its veterancy bonuses nerf only a bit. That makes SU-85 OP when vetted. It penetration values are simply over the top.

Its a top tier TD which is supposed to be hardcounter WITHOUT being spammed for up to 375 STOCK armor.
Its pen being too good is your personal opinion, not balance fact.

And your opinion on vet is plain wrong, taking away RoF vet, making it machinegun TD obliterating both heavies and mediums alike with equal ease and replacing it with pen that makes a difference exclusively vs heavies while doing absolutely nadda against meds and increasing reload time only makes it better vs heavies, the exact units it was supposed to be better against.