OKW overhaul discussion

After snares added to UKF and the tech changes to USF, I've been thinking about several changes to OKW to overhaul some aspects of the faction so that everyone (both OKW players and Allied players) will have a better experience, while leaving the faction power level roughly the same.

Aim of changes:
- less cheese;
- adress some underperforming units;
- spread OKW fighting power more evenly across early/mid/late game;
- replace cheesy mechanics with fair ones, but ultimately leave units/abilities as powerful as they are now as not to mess with faction balance;
- have minimal impact (no radical changes).

For easy reading I will present changes like patch notes.

Obviously all numbers like prices and stats are subject to change. Focus the discussion on the ideas themselves.

Prologue: dislodging the Mechanized Headquarters meta

Mechanized (Luchs + Puma) is the dominant choice in the current meta. I believe this is because

• Volksgrenadiers - even with their high cost-effectiveness - are not enough to hold back Allied vetted/upgraded/elite infantry and

• OKW has unreliable manpower based AT, with a lack of Panzerschrecks and an ATG that is awkward to use.

Which makes the majority of players use the Luchs to bleed the opponent of manpower and the Puma as a mostly reliable AT unit.


How to make Battlegroup HQ more attractive in the face of Mechanized HQ's advantages?

With OKW's limited variety in units I don't think it's possible to make Battlegroup healthily match up with Mechanized by shifting units around, as the tier structure with the Puma and one of the AI lights will always be prefered over the other.

Therefor I think it's best to try to indirectly make Battlegroup more attractive by splitting the T4 tech in half and by making the Raketten more reliable (longer range, better durability).

If Obers can come soon enough, together with a more reliable ATG, it might be able to contest Mechanized. Battlegroup will indirectly benefit by becoming more attractive due to its cheaper teching cost, in order to get the Schwerer Panzer HQ up faster. Putting the Ostwind and Hetzer behind the same "T3.5" tech could make it even more attractive.

To do this I propose the following changes to the Schwerer Panzer HQ and the Raketten:

1. Tier 4 - Schwerer Panzer Headquarters tech split
I would like to see T4 split up into two techs, so Obersoldaten can hit the field earlier than they currently do. Doctrinal 'T3.5' units are now also available at stock T4 so they can become viable again. All other units including the tech structure AA gun are locked behind side tech.

• T4 stock headquarters now costs ~100MP / 60FU to construct. AA gun is disabled. Set up time halved.

• A Stock T4 can produce Obersoldaten (no LMG/STG upgrade).

• A Stock T4 can now also produce the doctrinal Flammpanzer Hetzer and the Ostwind.

• Upgrade Activate Panzer Reserves now available for 100MP / 60FU. Unlocks: Obers LMG/STG upgrade; tier structure flak gun enabled; Jagdpanzer IV, Panzer IV, Panther. Upgrade time is the other half of original HQ set up time.

• King Tiger now requires all trucks set up and the Activate Panzer Reserves upgrade activated (same timing/resources as now).

• If need be, timings for the "T3.5" vehicles (Ostwind & Hetzer) can be adjusted by moving costs over from upgrade price to stock T4 price (this would require some testing). With the current numbers the Ostwind would be 15 fuel faster than Ostheer's Ostwind.

2. Rakettenwerfer 43
I think this unit should be standardised so it's less annoying to play both with and against.

• Range increased from 50 to 55-60. Aim time slightly buffed (so it's more responsive against moving targets).

• Camouflage now only available when stationary. Unit can not move while cloaked, only rotate. ZiS automatic ambush camouflage could be used (automatically activates when stationary).

• Improve durability by increasing crew from 4 to 5 models.

• Optional: to have the Rakettenwerfer remain a unique unit, it could get lowered damage (120 or 100) but have the same high penetration on all ranges. This would be historically accurate since it fired HEAT rockets that do not lose penetration with distance.

Other changes

3. OKW Opening combat power
With Obersoldaten being able to be fielded much quicker, there is room to tone down OKW's starting power. I'm not exactly sure how though.

This would be quite a significant change (in terms of impact) so I imagine this as a 'phase two' sort of change that comes after the tech changes. It's an entire discussion on its own. Some thoughts:

• I think Sturmpioneers should stay the way they are. It adds diversity to the early game.

• It would probably be possible to shuffle around with starting manpower (lower it basically) and reduce cost of SwS trucks. This would make OKW less oppressive early game because they would no longer be able to outproduce other factions with their third squad.

• Changes to be defined at a later moment after the other changes have been implemented.

4. Command Panther
One of the last remaining relics from the call-in meta days. Should be moved to tech so OKW doesn't have a get-out-of-jail card for skipping tech. Given that it lacks combat veterancy, it's arguably not that much better than a normal Panther to justify its high cost now that it's no longer a premium call-in.

• Command Panther now needs to be built in T4.

• Price decreased to ~510MP / 200FU.

• CP requirement down to 0CP.

• Sight range from 55 to 45.

5. King Tiger
This unit underperforms for its price and role. Some small changes and buffs should make the unit more reliable while not becoming OP again.

• Main gun AOE profile changed to match Brummbar style AOE profile (but lower damage and spread than Brummbar). Scatter slightly buffed.

• Spearhead ability moved from vet 3 to vet 1. Combat Blitz ability moved to vet 3.

• Veterancy requirements lowered by 20-30%.

• If possible (probably not), the King Tiger should get its coaxial MG34 (it currently only has the hull MG and the pintle MG).

6. SdKfz 251 "Stuka zu Fuß"
Reduce wiping potential of rockets a bit so it matches other rocket artillery, while making the strike more reliable, by spreading out AOE. The power of the unit should stay roughly the same in the end.

• AOE profile changed so damage distribution is spread out more. Less complete squad wipes, more reliable hits.

• IMO, along with all other artillery units, remove cooldown bonusses from veterancy.

7.1; Artillery [recon] Flares (Special Operations Doctrine)
Uncounterable recon that can be placed anywhere on the map is deemed unfair due to obvious reasons. I'd like to introduce a complete overhaul to this ability.

• Sight provided by recon flares removed. Flares are now a visual clue only to warn enemy players of the ability being used.

• Ability now gives +100% sight (or any other number) to all units within ability area.

• Area of effect increased by ~50%.

Show Spoiler

7.2; Alternative to 7.1 - Artillery Flares (Special Operations Doctrine)

• Ability can no longer be put anywhere on the map.

• Ability will now automatically reveal selected enemy frontline territory.

• Alternatively, ability can reveal all enemy frontline territory (similar to British flares).

8. Sturmpioneer timed anti-building demolition charge
OKW has no real anti-garrisson (as in demolishing them) tools. There are some units/abilities that can be used to some effect but they either take a long time (ISG), a lot of resources (4-5 Volks flame nades), or both (Stuka or SP Flamers, also doctrinal). This means OKW is especially defenseless against FHQs in team games.

• Ability "Anti-building demolition charge" added to Sturmpioneers.

• Costs 80 munitions.

• Only damages buildings.

• Has a 10 second timer so demo can not be used against enemy units.

9. SdKfz 251/20 Infrared Halftrack
This unit's ability to 3D spot enemies in the FOW is quite cheesy and has too much synergy with indirect fire units (because you can see the exact unit positions and formations). And even worse, it creates the bug where it will make some enemy units permanently visible on the minimap and strategic map.

• Removed the unit's scanning mechanic. The rotating infrared searchlight now only serves as a visual clue of the unit role and its identification.

• Replace the scanning mechanic by a passive ability to detect all enemy units on the tactical map and the minimap. This works identical to the 223's vehicle detection, but for all units.

• Passive Unit Detection has ~100 range.

Enter here expecting a complete over the top changes which are not feasible to implement, to actually seeing something which could be done.

Values aside:

1- It requires testing as to whether the LMG needs to be gated down on the Flak HQ upgrade or not.
Same could be said about the JPIV. Wouldn't mind if people get access to a pseudo Stug/Su85 tank destroyer. Specially if T3 gets destroyed.

2- Not sure about what to do with Volks. On starting manpower, you could reduce initial mp by 40/50 and reduce the cost to build each SwS HT by 25/30

3- Make it 55 and put it at crawl old stealth Zis gun speed. Basically to mostly let it rotate.

4- Changes to Command PV are probably on the sight.

5- Same with small adjustments to KT.

6- No comments on Stuka.

7- Or make it so it can only target frontline territories? Expect flak from most "fanboys" if the ability is changed in any way.

8- ISG vet has always been bad so yeah. Whatever changes would be good.

Wow, I agree with pretty much everything

Just would add Kubel: Lower DPS in exchange for higher survival ability, so it can be a good scout

Also buff the damn Puma accuracy

Obers were suggested to be put in the Med HQ and given the Sturmpioneer's Panzershreck package to act as Panzerjägers as well, sort of like the Ost's Panzergrenadiers.

Enter here expecting a complete over the top changes which are not feasible to implement, to actually seeing something which could be done.

Values aside:

1- It requires testing as to whether the LMG needs to be gated down on the Flak HQ upgrade or not.
Same could be said about the JPIV. Wouldn't mind if people get access to a pseudo Stug/Su85 tank destroyer. Specially if T3 gets destroyed.

2- Not sure about what to do with Volks. On starting manpower, you could reduce initial mp by 40/50 and reduce the cost to build each SwS HT by 25/30

3- Make it 55 and put it at crawl old stealth Zis gun speed. Basically to mostly let it rotate.

4- Changes to Command PV are probably on the sight.

5- Same with small adjustments to KT.

6- No comments on Stuka.

7- Or make it so it can only target frontline territories? Expect flak from most "fanboys" if the ability is changed in any way.

8- ISG vet has always been bad so yeah. Whatever changes would be good.

Good to see you guys like most changes. Agreed on 1. I think 3 would need testing too - 60 with only rotating in camo or 55 with crawling speed are both feasonable.

Point 2 (OKW opening) is a pretty large discussion on its own and it might be too big to change along with the rest. It might be good to turn that into a 'phase two' concept and have a look at it at a later time. Otherwise I also like the idea of adjusting starting manpower and reducing SwS so I've added it to the OP.

Wow, I agree with pretty much everything

Just would add Kubel: Lower DPS in exchange for higher survival ability, so it can be a good scout

Also buff the damn Puma accuracy

I've thought about the Kubel but I'm a bit divided. It's next to useless in team games but pretty good in 1s for (back)capping. If more people feel like it needs to be changed I'll add it to the list.

Puma accuracy I'm also divided about. I feel like it's the only thing that keeps it balanced as with good micro and a bit of luck it can already reliably take on (lower end) medium tanks.

Obers were suggested to be put in the Med HQ and given the Sturmpioneer's Panzershreck package to act as Panzerjägers as well, sort of like the Ost's Panzergrenadiers.

I've also been thinking about moving the Sdkfz 251/20 Infrared Halftrack to Special Operations as an accuracy buff unit to Panthers and Obersoldaten STG44, and moving Obersoldaten to fill the spot in Battlegroup Headquarters.

However, this (along with a Panzershreck upgrade for Obersoldaten) would be quite a significant change and I'm not sure if Relic wants to be this radical. The USF tech changes were very minimal. I've aimed to keep the proposed changes in the OP to be fairly minimal too. I have now specified that in the OP.

Good to see you guys like most changes. Agreed on 1. I think 3 would need testing too - 60 with only rotating in camo or 55 with crawling speed are both feasonable.

Point 2 (OKW opening) is a pretty large discussion on its own and it might be too big to change along with the rest. It might be good to turn that into a 'phase two' concept and have a look at it at a later time. Otherwise I also like the idea of adjusting starting manpower and reducing SwS so I've added it to the OP.



I've thought about the Kubel but I'm a bit divided. It's next to useless in team games but pretty good in 1s for (back)capping. If more people feel like it needs to be changed I'll add it to the list.

Puma accuracy I'm also divided about. I feel like it's the only thing that keeps it balanced as with good micro and a bit of luck it can already reliably take on (lower end) medium tanks.



I've also been thinking about moving the Sdkfz 251/20 Infrared Halftrack to Special Operations as an accuracy buff unit to Panthers and Obersoldaten STG44, and moving Obersoldaten to fill the spot in Battlegroup Headquarters.

However, this (along with a Panzershreck upgrade for Obersoldaten) would be quite a significant change and I'm not sure if Relic wants to be this radical. The USF tech changes were very minimal. I've aimed to keep the proposed changes in the OP to be fairly minimal too. I have now specified that in the OP.

If your proposed changes are enough to "fix" the OKW then I agree.

It is a well thought set of chances, although I would take caution with leig and KT not to make them OP. As for raketen, I could see some changes, but not the ones that standarise it against other at guns. It is the most interesting and diversifying gun design among all the factions and I wouldn't like to have it replaced with another ost/brit style of gun. Two of them is already too many.

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1. Tier 4 - Schwerer Panzer Headquarters tech split
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Imo all truck should have upgrade providing more HP armor so that they are cheaper to replace and the player can choose the amount of resource he wants to invest in them.

Ober do come to late.

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OKW Opening combat power
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Imo the VG ST44 could be replaced by the m40 one and the incendiary grenades by normal.

In addition SP could replace 2 St44 with 2 MP 40 and have the cost and pop reduced. The extra 2 ST44 could come as an upgrade.

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Rakettenwerfer 43
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Moving why cloak should be removed from all ATG. The problem is with RW thou is that crew die to easy and reaction times are way to high.

The unit should simply fire truck faster and I would even trade penetration for deflection damage.

Could also be locked behind 1 truck set up.

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Command Panther
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The problem with the unit is more of fighting vehicle than a support vehicle, more of Panther ACE with mark target than a unit providing bonuses to other unit.

The unit could easily lose the mark ability and trade support bonuses for DPS.

Further imo more all aura should be separated into an passive and active part.

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King Tiger
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Toning down the penetration vet bonuses at max range of allied TD would also help is unit allot.

Maybe allow it be called in 1 for each t4 truck? (allowing multiple t4 truck?)

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SdKfz 251 "Stuka zu Fuß"
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Redesign as a hard counter garrison and emplacement with incendiary rounds firing 2 time, so that T2 has better anti-garrison tools.

Even consider swapping with wefer since it fit the faction better (later model)

Artillery [recon] Flares (Special Operations Doctrine)
Simply increase CD by allot

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7.5cm le.IG 18 Infantry Support Gun...

At this point would be tempted to swap with Ostheer mortar for a more mobile option for OKW.

Then it could be buffed to better suit ostheer superior support weapons.

This is an older suggestion with allot of changes:

This another approach to OKW aiming at retaining to original design of aggressive truck use that has been lost its strength with the change to FRP.

Show Spoiler

1. T4

This is just a random (probably bad) idea, but what if the T4 upgrade unlocked the JP4 and the other tanks would have an additional HQ requirement. (Battlegruppe => P4 / Mech => Panther)

Would you have to rebuy the upgrade if T4 gets destroyed?


2. OKW opening

Volks - I believe a build cost increase of 10-20MP and a reinforce cost increase of 1-2MP should be considered over nerfs to their combat effectiveness.

Sturms - Vet requirements could use some tweaks.


3. Raketen

I would lock the camo ability behind Vet 1 and make it reduce the squads vision by like 50% when active.
I would also give them a baseline ability that increases their range. (similar to the USF AT gun vet 1 ability)


4. Command Panther

Command Panther needs to be changed that's for sure.


5. King Tiger

I think the King Tiger should have it's turret traverse buff from Vet 2(+40%) be made baseline and it's vet requirements lowered. Maybe some minor buffs like more sight and/or less fuel cost as well.


6. Stuka zu Fuss

I agree that the cooldown bonuses from vet make it slightly ridiculous. Maybe make vet 2 increase armor/health instead or shuffle the bonuses around. (Vet 2 <-> Vet 5)


7. Artillery Flares

Maybe make it require a capture point as a target instead of the current free area target.


8. LeIG

Vet 1: +50% Smoke range
Vet 2: -23% received accuracy, +10% movement speed
Vet 3: -40% Barrage recharge, -20% scatter
Vet 4: +15% penetration and damage
Vet 5: +1 shell per Barrage


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I would also like to see the Kubel's vet 2 buffs (+20% max speed and rotation speed, +25% ac/de-celeration) made baseline.

EDIT.
Oh and can we replace the Luchs' Vet 1 ability with something different?

I disagree with the KT buff though... giving it brummbar aoe and scatter might make it a bit OP....

Recommend either buffing traverse instead or reducing the price of the KT... the KT is fine performance wise... just a bit too expensive thats all

Another solution for the Stuka would be to swap it with the Ostheer Mortar half truck (that could use a buff to incendiary round).

That would make both units see more action. The MHT as an indirect fire support option something T2 lucks that Stuka as doctrinal rocket artillery without the T4.

I wish that Stuka had some higher requirements to field, so that it can't come out so early. Having three trucks built, similar to the conditions for the KT would at least delay its tech further and bring it in line with other SP arty like Katyushas / Panzerwerfers. It should be considered a late game unit, right now it only requires a minimum of 15+45+100 (15 for truck, 45 for mechanized, 100 for stuka) (160) fuel assuming you ignore Battlegroup and go straight for a Mechanized regiment. Hell, even if you get out a puma, or a luchs you will still get it out much earlier than any allied player that invests nothing in light or medium armor would get a similar unit out.

Hell, just requiring two trucks for the stuka to be build would help tremendously with how early they come out in team games.

Compare it to much less potent arty like the Katyusha / Panzerwerfer, which require 10+85+90+85 (270) fuel minimum for katyusha, and 10+40+90+25+25+85 (275) for Panzerwerfer.

It's just insane to me that the most potent SPA in the game can be called out within the first 15-20 minutes of the game if the axis team is playing well enough, which they usually are.

I wish that Stuka had some higher requirements to field, so that it can't come out so early. Having three trucks built, similar to the conditions for the KT would at least delay its tech further and bring it in line with other SP arty like Katyushas / Panzerwerfers. It should be considered a late game unit, right now it only requires a minimum of 15+45+100 (15 for truck, 45 for mechanized, 100 for stuka) (160) fuel assuming you ignore Battlegroup and go straight for a Mechanized regiment. Hell, even if you get out a puma, or a luchs you will still get it out much earlier than any allied player that invests nothing in light or medium armor would get a similar unit out.

Hell, just requiring two trucks for the stuka to be build would help tremendously with how early they come out in team games.

Compare it to much less potent arty like the Katyusha / Panzerwerfer, which require 10+85+90+85 (270) fuel minimum for katyusha, and 10+40+90+25+25+85 (275) for Panzerwerfer.

It's just insane to me that the most potent SPA in the game can be called out within the first 15-20 minutes of the game if the axis team is playing well enough, which they usually are.

Gettin an early Stuka opens one up for some brutal quick medium/pre-timely heavy tank rape

I always thiught the stuka could be tied the first level of schwere if it were split.

You propose across the board nerfs to OKW, with a few token buffs to make it look like that's not what you're doing.

Nobody would build Obers early, many people don't build them at all now! I can't remember the last game I did. I (and would assume most other OKW players) prefer volks, even when they are trash late game, they're cheap and easy to support.

OKW is not a faction that is overpowered, these nerfs would put OKW in the ground for good.

Artillery flares are fine.

This is an older suggestion with allot of changes:

This another approach to OKW aiming at retaining to original design of aggressive truck use that has been lost its strength with the change to FRP.

Show Spoiler

This is a cool idea, except the multiple KT idea.

Could you elaborate on point 4)? What does make it a STUG mean? Literally change it to a stug? change its profile to be stug like?

This is a cool idea, except the multiple KT idea.

Could you elaborate on point 4)? What does make it a STUG mean? Literally change it to a stug? change its profile to be stug like?

The suggestion is not to able to field multiple KT but to have to build a new T4 before you can replace the one you lost, the limit to one would remain.

Imo one of issues with Super heavy tanks is that even if one sacrifices his unit to kill them the opponent can same time instantly replace them (especially in large mods).
Allow more time before these unit can be replaced would help allot in balancing them better imo

Currently JP gets allot of armor and HP with a weak gun for it cost. The idea here is to have a cheaper version with less armor, HP and pop, but keep the ranger to 60. It would serve a counter to medium tanks and TD.

The suggestion is not to able to field multiple KT but to have to build a new T4 before you can replace the one you lost. Imo one of issues with Super heavy tanks is that even if one sacrifices his unit to kill them the opponent can same time instantly replace them (especially in large mods).
Allow more time before thse unit can be replaced would help allot in balancing them better imo

Currently JP gets allot of armor and HP with a weak gun for it cost. The idea here is to have a cheaper version with less armor, HP and pop, but keep the ranger to 60. It would serve a counter to medium tanks and TD.

Building a new T4 seems silly, why not have the KT have a call in cooldown that triggers upon death?

I like the JP4 idea, makes it better to build. Panther is a weird TD.

Building a new T4 seems silly, why not have the KT have a call in cooldown that triggers upon death?
..

I have made that suggestion for other super heavies tanks. Thought one could try something different for stock unit.