PPSH cons are still good, and the fact that they can be used as engineers with the right doctrine gives them so much flexibility.
No need to be made cheaper too.
Conscripts need to be cheaper
12 Dec 2018, 10:56 AM
#161
Posts: 571
12 Dec 2018, 11:00 AM
#162
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
PPSH cons are still good, and the fact that they can be used as engineers with the right doctrine gives them so much flexibility.
No need to be made cheaper too.
No one questions ppsh being good, you have that mentioned in the thread multiple times.
No one cares how you can use them with the doctrines, that's the fucking point of this thread, its about their out of the gate performance and (lack of) scaling if you don't pick these doctrines.
If you need to pick a "right" doctrine just to make your mainline infantry work, then that mainline infantry is underpowered, since weapon upgrade seems to be out of question and vet and weapon tweaks proved to do absolutely nothing, only other solution to make them worth something is to cut the cost.
They do not perform nor scale like 240mp unit.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
12 Dec 2018, 11:09 AM
#163
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
And giving Conscripts placebo-effect buffs like those pointless fiddling with damage of their Mosins without actually changing it's DPS totally worked out and Conscripts became useful? Funny how Osttrupen ended up having better scaling into late game thanks to their LMG than Cons. Hell even Brit engineers have better scaling into late game thanks to flamethrower or armor/vickers upgrade they have.
You know something is wrong when engineer units with nearly same reinforcement cost ends up better than core infantry of another faction
That is incorrect there was no "placebo-effect buffs" in conscripts in the "DECEMBER 19th" patch.
The DPS of the squad was increased.
The mosin become:
a) more consistent in its damage out put
b) It had its DPS increased
The DPS was changed.
12 Dec 2018, 11:22 AM
#164
Posts: 3260
Conscripts are excellent utility squads with their abilities unlocked. The problem is those abilities cost a lot of fuel and manpower to unlock in the first place, and that's not worth it if you've gone one Conscript squad.
Giving much less punishing access to Molotovs and AT grenades for one or two Conscript builds would go a long way to help them. Otherwise it'll stay all-in PPSh builds, Tank Hunter builds that don't pay fuel for Conscript snares, or no Conscripts at all.
Giving much less punishing access to Molotovs and AT grenades for one or two Conscript builds would go a long way to help them. Otherwise it'll stay all-in PPSh builds, Tank Hunter builds that don't pay fuel for Conscript snares, or no Conscripts at all.
12 Dec 2018, 11:35 AM
#165
Posts: 868 | Subs: 5
Hi all, going to get right after it:
As the title says, cons need to be cheaper and here is why I think so...
To start, they are shit tier infantry with no stock weapon upgrade. They get very very durable at vet 3 (too durable) but until then they are fodder. A unit should require full vet to begin to function. Additionally, other units ALSO get more durable but also get the ability to increase damage output, which sort of offsets enemy durability buffs--cons get no weapons so while they become durable, they don't pack more punch meaning their own durability is lessened but enemies are not.
Secondly, manpower costs in general for the Soviet lineup, namely teching. Cons cost the same as grens and slightly less than volks but are shit on by them hard. To get grens an Ost player needs to shell out 80mp and 10 fuel, this also unlocks fausts, snipers and mortars. The same cost will grant cons only molitovs. To get supporting units the Soviet must shell out double that manpower. What this means is that if the Soviet builds a tech they are a neat loss for manpower compared to their opponent. Okw can be pumping out combat ready units with no delay, and Soviet can't even match them with chaff AND tech up.
Some say "but oorah" or "but utility" and ignore the fact that orrah, while a great ability, is a further extra cost into trying to make conscripts work, something nobody else has to worry about. In addition it received a price increase recently making it less accessible. As for utility... Sand bags are great, and something every other faction can also do (ecxmmxcept usf) hardly worth making the unit garbage over,and it certainly doesn't hold volks back.
An obvious concern about cheaper conscripts would be the PPSH ability but I don't think that the risk of a doctrinal ability should warrant a stock unit being kept sub par, so my solution for that would simply be to create a new call in (or built in t0), assault conscripts squad that would have different vet and a different cost to standard conscripts.
Basicly at the end of the day, cons require massive investment to reach their cap, which is already lower than their counterparts. One shouldn't have to invest more for less. This is compounded by other elements of Soviet tech (160mp off the cuff to unlock something to replace conscripts) and their side techs don't go far into making an already garbage unit slightly less garbage.
I would suggest a 220mp price point to better reflect their performance and required extra-tech investments as well as their reliance on munitions to function.
A point could be made for 210mp even, given how much better conscripts ostroppen are than conscripts (with a tech included snare and a weapon upgrade no less) but 220mp would be a reasonable start.
A unit should require full vet to begin to function.
... You meant a unit should NOT require to be Full vet...
I've always said they should become Strelski at Vet 1 or something.
- I agree on changing ppsh to assault conscripts. Is what happens with Ass Grenadiers.
They're a separate call-in.
People complain the Soviets are useless.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
12 Dec 2018, 11:38 AM
#166
Posts: 868 | Subs: 5
Conscripts are excellent utility squads with their abilities unlocked. The problem is those abilities cost a lot of fuel and manpower to unlock in the first place, and that's not worth it if you've gone one Conscript squad.
Giving much less punishing access to Molotovs and AT grenades for one or two Conscript builds would go a long way to help them. Otherwise it'll stay all-in PPSh builds, Tank Hunter builds that don't pay fuel for Conscript snares, or no Conscripts at all.
They tried making molotov/AT nades a unified 50% cost upgrade in a community patch.
The Germans got up as one and screamed their souls off until it was rolled back. Sigh.
People complain the Soviets are useless.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
12 Dec 2018, 11:43 AM
#167
Posts: 378
Again, I still fail to see how this is true. No one has made really made an actual argument about how this is the case.
This guy gets it!
12 Dec 2018, 12:01 PM
#168
Posts: 573
That is incorrect there was no "placebo-effect buffs" in conscripts in the "DECEMBER 19th" patch.
The DPS of the squad was increased.
The mosin become:
a) more consistent in its damage out put
b) It had its DPS increased
The DPS was changed.
Yeah, by 0.1-0.5 around at mid-close ranges. It's a joke and Conscripts lost ability to snap off models at close range due to 16 damage becoming > 12 making them actually worse at close ranges.
It was never meant to be buff in any meaningful way, in fact inrease of munitions of basic abilities and PPSh upgrade ended up making Cons borderline worse than they were before "buff"
12 Dec 2018, 12:03 PM
#169
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Yeah, by 0.1-0.5 around at mid-close ranges. It's a joke.
it was never meant to be buff in any meaningful way, in fact inrease of munitions of basic abilities and PPSh upgrade ended up making Cons borderline worse than they were before "buff"
Well, they are more reliable then they were, but being a winner of special olympics doesn't mean you're not crippled all of sudden.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
12 Dec 2018, 12:10 PM
#170
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yeah, by 0.1-0.5 around at mid-close ranges. It's a joke and Conscripts lose ability to snap off models at close range due to 16 damage becoming > 12 making them actually worse at close ranges.
It was never meant to be buff in any meaningful way, in fact inrease of munitions of basic abilities and PPSh upgrade ended up making Cons borderline worse than they were before "buff"
Once more your stats are wrong. Conscript's DPS mostly benefited at long range and also got 10% more accuracy at vet 3.
You conclusion are also wrong the DECEMBER 19th patch made conscript perform allot more consistent and lot less RNG, while performing better, getting vet bonuses faster and having a cheaper molotov .
In exchange they paid more munition for ourah and molotov, and the reason for that was actually to nerf PPsh conscripts.
12 Dec 2018, 12:11 PM
#171
Posts: 573
Once you stat are wrong. Conscript's DPS mostly benefited at long range and also got 10% more accuracy at vet 3.
You conclusion are also wrong the DECEMBER 19th patch made conscript perform allot more consistent and lot less RNG, while performing better, getting vet bonuses faster and having a cheaper molotov .
Yeah, I get your point. Conscripts were bad and after that patch they became reliably bad.
12 Dec 2018, 12:13 PM
#172
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yeah, I get your point. Conscripts were bad and after that patch they became reliably bad.
If you actually got my point you would start actually checking facts and stat before posting and save us all allot time.
12 Dec 2018, 12:17 PM
#173
Posts: 573
If you actually got my point you would start actually checking facts and stat before posting and save us all allot time.
You got no point in first place, you're just wasting everyones time by being contrarian here. What are you even arguing for? Conscripts being fine and/or useful in current state?
12 Dec 2018, 12:25 PM
#174
Posts: 91
Before december patch cons had 16 dmg and low accuracy, and their performance was unstable and very rng reliant. But they were decent at shott distance.
After the patch damage became 12 and accuracy was raised - their close range performace became reliably weak, but long range became decent, not strong.
I ran some tests in cheat mode recently.
1 on 1 in green cover cons usually win vs grens and VGs at vet0
At vet 3 they still win, but if grens aor VGs have weapon upgrades (disregard of vet)- cons consistently lose. Plus, volks and grens have longer range grenades, so they can stay in cover while throwing.
So, the december patch point was to make cons more stable. So I think giving them SVT and reducing their vet3 bonuses can stabilize them more. But it's not just the cons. We cannot change them without looking at penals.
After the patch damage became 12 and accuracy was raised - their close range performace became reliably weak, but long range became decent, not strong.
I ran some tests in cheat mode recently.
1 on 1 in green cover cons usually win vs grens and VGs at vet0
At vet 3 they still win, but if grens aor VGs have weapon upgrades (disregard of vet)- cons consistently lose. Plus, volks and grens have longer range grenades, so they can stay in cover while throwing.
So, the december patch point was to make cons more stable. So I think giving them SVT and reducing their vet3 bonuses can stabilize them more. But it's not just the cons. We cannot change them without looking at penals.
What doesn't kill you - postpones the inevitable
12 Dec 2018, 12:27 PM
#175
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
You got no point in first place, you're just wasting everyones time by being contrarian here. What are you even arguing for? Conscripts being fine and/or useful in current state?
My point is that the stats you brought are incorrect ans so is your analysis about the specific patch.
I have explained my opinion on conscripts many times, they match up with Grenadiers is one of the most balanced in the game. It is penal Guards and VG that are op and if they get fixed one can take a look if conscripts need something extra.
12 Dec 2018, 12:32 PM
#176
Posts: 573
My point is that the stats you brought are incorrect ans so is your analysis about the specific patch.
I have explained my opinion on conscripts many times, they match up with Grenadiers is one of the most balanced in the game. It is penal Guards and VG that are op and if they get fixed one can take a look if conscripts need something extra.
Nothing I posted is incorrect, DPS increase only happened at mid-close ranges and in reality Cons became worse at those range because 12 damage requires 7 shots while 16 requires 5. DPS increase was miniscule did not make up for loss of damage at ranges Cons supposed to be used at. Patch made them reliable, it didnt change the fact they were and are still bad.
Perhaps if you read my posts again my point would be more obvious to you.
12 Dec 2018, 12:38 PM
#177
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Nothing I posted is incorrect, DPS increase only happened at mid-close ranges and in reality Cons became worse at those range because 12 damage requires 7 shots while 16 requires 5. DPS increase was miniscule did not make up for loss of damage at ranges Cons supposed to be used at. Patch made them reliable, it didnt change the fact they were and are still bad.
Perhaps if you read my posts again my point would be more obvious to you.
PLS check stat before posting:
Accuracy from 0.541/0.495/0.334 to 0.757/0.659/0.556
percentage of change: 139% / 133% /166%
Most gain is AT LONG range
Now if you want to argue that High Damage low accuracy is better, you will probably have to argue that with people like darkarmadillo and katitof who bring the subject up many times about C.E. who did not received the same treatment of making their weapons more consistent as the conscript's mosin.
12 Dec 2018, 12:39 PM
#178
1 
Posts: 609
If say AT grenades unlocked with either a tier 1 or 2 building with Molotov’s as they are now might that help in that it prevents pure conspam being too cheap resource wise but helps builds with one or two con squads
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12 Dec 2018, 12:42 PM
#179
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Nothing I posted is incorrect, DPS increase only happened at mid-close ranges and in reality Cons became worse at those range because 12 damage requires 7 shots while 16 requires 5. DPS increase was miniscule did not make up for loss of damage at ranges Cons supposed to be used at. Patch made them reliable, it didnt change the fact they were and are still bad.
Perhaps if you read my posts again my point would be more obvious to you.
There is one another thing that is quite important, but completely ignored, especially by Vipper here.
Yes, DPS was insignificantly increased, but another thing that happened is, cons now do overkill damage, inflicting more damage then is needed to kill a model, which effectively decreases raw dps.
I never understood why they went with odd 12 dmg number instead of 10 voks have. Sure, it would have made TTK at CQC longer, but that's what PPSHs are for and the unit would be even more reliable without DPS loss on overkill damage.
If someone feels like it, feel free to do the math accounting for overkill damage to readjust their actual DPS and compare that with old one to see if that DPS buff vipper clings to so hard even exists, because with 12 damage, TTK is simply not just HP/DPS as it is the case with literally every other rifle squad in game.
PLS check stat before posting:
Accuracy from 0.541/0.495/0.334 to 0.757/0.659/0.556
percentage of change: 139% / 133% /166%
Most gain is AT LONG range
Cool, not stop ignoring the damage went from 16 to 12 and post real number instead of manipulative one once again, trying to invoke bias that they are stronger then they actually are.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
12 Dec 2018, 12:43 PM
#180
Posts: 573
PLS check stat before posting:
Accuracy from 0.541/0.495/0.334 to 0.757/0.659/0.556
percentage of change: 139% / 133% /166%
Most gain is AT LONG range
Very nice of you to point out accuracy increase while omitting damage decrease that came along with it. In any case
I'm done wasting my time with you since its obvious you're just provoking people into insulting you by wasting their with false information like this one.
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