Having actual reinforcement platform behind you in early game(251) is MUCH more powerful tool then merge, which in itself does completely nothing, unless you got cons exclusively for it, in which case, the point about cons being too expensive and too bad for actual combat just got even more reinforced by you.
You use "Merge" ability wrongly, man. "Merge" is finished instantly while reinforcement takes time. You can keep cons close to flame thrower engineers and constantly merging them, so your enemy will not be able to force your flame thrower engineers retreat. Besides, "Merge" can save you manpower sometimes, if your shock troops lost some models, it is reasonable to merge them with cons, because shock troops are so expensive and takes so long to reinforce.
You use "Merge" ability wrongly, man. "Merge" is finished instantly while reinforcement takes time. You can keep cons close to flame thrower engineers and constantly merging them, so your enemy will not be able to force your flame thrower engineers retreat. Besides, "Merge" can save you manpower sometimes, if your shock troops lost some models, it is reasonable to merge them with cons, because shock troops are so expensive and takes so long to reinforce.
Merge also doesn't increase your fighting power or field presence, it simply transfers it.
If you merge with shocks, you're not saving anything, on the contrary, you increase the bleed, because shocks have no massive rec acc of con vet and merged cons do not have 1.5 armor shocks have.
Flamer CE is pretty much the only reasonable situation you'd want to use merge, but its irrelevant anyway, because there won't be any cons, just penals or maxims due to how shitty cons still are.
They can't really be fixed by tinkering with their vet and I never believed it was a good way to do it, cost reduction is needed as I think stock weapon upgrade, as needed as it would be, is too radical for relic to consider.
If one has in the field 3 penal and 6 conscripts, one has 3 SVT and 6 mosin. By merging one now 6 SVT and 3 mosin and thus has more firepower and fighting power.
If one has in the field 3 penal and 6 conscripts, one has 3 SVT and 6 mosin. By merging one now 6 SVT and 3 mosin and thus has more firepower and fighting power.
Or, and now focus:
You could have 9 penal models in 2 penal squads instead, just not getting irrelevant con squad in the first place.
At the moment some people pretend too hard that stock cons are useful.
While they are not useless, they most certainly aren't pulling their worth.
There will always be discussions and issues with their performance as long as they cost same as grens while being completely inferior after first 5 minutes without a proper doctrine.
You could have 9 penal models in 2 penal squads instead, just not getting irrelevant con squad in the first place.
At the moment some people pretend too hard that stock cons are useful.
While they are not useless, they most certainly aren't pulling their worth.
There will always be discussions and issues with their performance as long as they cost same as grens while being completely inferior after first 5 minutes without a proper doctrine.
Not matter how much BS someone can write,it will not change the fact that Merge can increasing the fighting power of one army since the merged entities can have access to better weapons.
Merge also doesn't increase your fighting power or field presence, it simply transfers it.
If you merge with shocks, you're not saving anything, on the contrary, you increase the bleed, because shocks have no massive rec acc of con vet and merged cons do not have 1.5 armor shocks have.
Flamer CE is pretty much the only reasonable situation you'd want to use merge, but its irrelevant anyway, because there won't be any cons, just penals or maxims due to how shitty cons still are.
They can't really be fixed by tinkering with their vet and I never believed it was a good way to do it, cost reduction is needed as I think stock weapon upgrade, as needed as it would be, is too radical for relic to consider.
But you only need to reinforce cons now, which is cheaper and faster. There is always trade-off.
And here is another problem. If cons get non-doc weapon upgrade, like SVT or DP, why should we merge them with other units?
If player need competent front-line infantry, just build penals, which require T1 same as grens.
Not matter how much BS someone can write,it will not change the fact that Merge can increasing the fighting power of one army since the merged entities can have access to better weapons.
Have a nice day
The point he's making is yuu have to first shoot yourself in the foot to find a use for the bandage. You are better off not getting cons and instead getting another maxim/penal squad. You are better off having 2 maxims (they might actually suppress something then) over having a Maxim and a con squad so you can merge the con squad into it when it gets low. Similarily, while more expensive a pair of penals offers 12 rifles with sights equipped so the 60mp you would save getting a con squad over another penal you would lose 10 fold in lost combat performance.
TECHNICALLY you are right, giving better the bodies the better guns does improve the combat power on field, but you have to weaken yourself first.
The point he's making is yuu have to first shoot yourself in the foot to find a use for the bandage. You are better off not getting cons and instead getting another maxim/penal squad. You are better off having 2 maxims (they might actually suppress something then) over having a Maxim and a con squad so you can merge the con squad into it when it gets low. Similarily, while more expensive a pair of penals offers 12 rifles with sights equipped so the 60mp you would save getting a con squad over another penal you would lose 10 fold in lost combat performance.
TECHNICALLY you are right, giving better the bodies the better guns does improve the combat power on field, but you have to weaken yourself first.
2 maxims comes much later than 1 maxim and 1 cons, you can use 1st cons to cap while waiting for 1st maxim. This is just how the game played, you need to trade something for something.
A single dp28 wouldn't run the risk of turning anything into exterminators, there is a reason you get a pair for only 75mu.
And a dp only makes them shittier ostroppen being more expensive troops with a worse weapon. All it does is change which unit they are most comparable to and worse than. Ultimately there is no reason for a clearly inferior unit that can't function alone nor work properly as a support unit to be priced the same as units that can.
The idea of giving Conscripts a single DP-28 was brought up before. Miragefla and Mr. Smith turned the idea down, because then we would have DP-28 Conscript blobs that are essentially just as lethal as any LMG42 Grenadier, LMG34 Obersoldaten, M1919A6 Riflemen, or M1919A6 Paratrooper blob (just use quantity to overcome quality) but more durable, have a Molotov, have an AT snare, cheap to reinforce, and can Oorah away from or around HMGs.
I would argue that the LMG42 upgrade for Osttruppen is acceptable because they receive a 50% accuracy penalty outside cover, making it worse than a single DP-28 outside of cover.
The idea of giving Conscripts a single DP-28 was brought up before. Miragefla and Mr. Smith turned the idea down, because then we would have DP-28 Conscript blobs that are essentially just as lethal as any LMG42 Grenadier, LMG34 Obersoldaten, M1919A6 Riflemen, or M1919A6 Paratrooper blob (just use quantity to overcome quality) but more durable, have a Molotov, have an AT snare, cheap to reinforce, and can Oorah away from or around HMGs.
I would argue that the LMG42 upgrade for Osttruppen is acceptable because they receive a 50% accuracy penalty outside cover, making it worse than a single DP-28 outside of cover.
I don't think the lmg42 is unacceptable at all for ostroppen and is a welcome change, but I maintain that DP28 cons would simply be worse off ostroppen. You could indeed have molitovs and at nades, at further additional cost (again, cost effeciency..) and oorah does certainly remain a trait, one that's counter intuitive to a stationary long range focused weapon, but a trait nonless...
It would almost be better off if OORAH increased ROF of their mosins than getting a weapon uograde. Similar effect but maintain their uniqueness.
As a matter of fact they could have scaling built into oorah tied to tech. Increased ROF when stationary, longer duration, reduce target size slightly... Reduced cooldown when active... All at the cost of frequent munitions drain. Nothing over the top, but small things that only last duration of oorah and make cons at least decent at the time.
2 maxims comes much later than 1 maxim and 1 cons, you can use 1st cons to cap while waiting for 1st maxim. This is just how the game played, you need to trade something for something.
Building 4 CE is cheaper still but it doesn't mean that it's a good idea. Against okw you need units that shoot bullets, cons and CE won't save you from sturms and whatever they chose to follow up with. Trading slightly better map control and tanking your combat potential inst going to win you any games, especially when being able to hold the ground is as important as being able to take it.
I often get 1 cons squad to build sandbags and to merge with team weapons/Guards squads.
The slight penalty to received accuracy is well-worth the staying power of a super valuable squad and/or a massive discount on MP costs.
Generally I never open Cons unless my mind is set on going Guard Rifle. In fact I feel it pigeonholes me into choosing Guard Rifle because the Cons I built for early game presence would be trash if I didn't have PPSHs.
Building 4 CE is cheaper still but it doesn't mean that it's a good idea. Against okw you need units that shoot bullets, cons and CE won't save you from sturms and whatever they chose to follow up with. Trading slightly better map control and tanking your combat potential inst going to win you any games, especially when being able to hold the ground is as important as being able to take it.
Aren't we talking about the utility of cons instead of starting strategy against OKW here? My point is cons is already doing its role well, and their role is trading a portion of combat ability for better map control.
Besides, in some cases, 1 cons and 1 maxim is better than 2 maxims, because cons can take some strategical position earlier, like a building. If you build two maxims, you may find it difficult to find a safe place to put your maxims.
Aren't we talking about the utility of cons here instead of starting strategy against OKW here? My point is cons is already doing its role well, and their role is trading a portion of combat ability for better map control.
Besides, in some cases, 1 cons and 1 maxim is better than 2 maxims, because cons can take some strategical position earlier, like a building. If you build two maxims, you may find it difficult to find a safe place to put your maxims.
OK I'll cede that. But they would be less of a burden if they were cheaper. If they are supposed to be around for merge and map control they shouldn't be costing the same as proper units that can fight, the amount of map they can gain is the same as grens and nearly the same as volks, the ground cons can forcibly take and hold is significantly lower than their corresponding units
OK I'll cede that. But they would be less of a burden if they were cheaper. If they are supposed to be around for merge and map control they shouldn't be costing the same as proper units that can fight, the amount of map they can gain is the same as grens and nearly the same as volks, the ground cons can forcibly take and hold is significantly lower than their corresponding units
I don't think there is a problem with their initial combat ability, you get closer, you win. But there is a problem with their upgrade potential. Grens get lmg42, Volks get stg, RMs get bar and Tommies get bren. Only cons have no non-doc upgrade.
Things are tricky here. If we give cons non-doc weapon upgrade, "Merge" ability will become not worthy it, and you may hesitate before you "Ura" your cons to charge enemy tanks because your cons could kill more enemy while standing in still with their upgraded weapon.
I don't think make them cheaper could solve the upgrade potential problem.
The point he's making is yuu have to first shoot yourself in the foot to find a use for the bandage. You are better off not getting cons and instead getting another maxim/penal squad. You are better off having 2 maxims (they might actually suppress something then) over having a Maxim and a con squad so you can merge the con squad into it when it gets low. Similarily, while more expensive a pair of penals offers 12 rifles with sights equipped so the 60mp you would save getting a con squad over another penal you would lose 10 fold in lost combat performance.
TECHNICALLY you are right, giving better the bodies the better guns does improve the combat power on field, but you have to weaken yourself first.
No that was not the point he was making, there was a claim that "Merge also doesn't increase your fighting power" and you also seem to agree that this claim is untrue. I have simply point out that error in that claim.
The rest is a attempt of smoke and mirrors to conceal the fact that the specific claim is wrong.
Merge is good ability regardless of the overall performance of conscripts.
Now if you want to open a discussion about if one should include at least 1 conscript in his army composition it a completely different topic.
On that topic I would argue that there are benefits for doing so:
One could produce a conscript during the time his CE built T1 to increase his field presence
One could produce a conscript to have easy access to green cover
One could produce a conscript to have access to AT grenades to counter FHT especially if his T-70 is running late.
One could produce a conscript to use merge with either his Penals, Guards or his maxims
One could produce conscript to take advantage of number of doctrinal abilities
The idea of giving Conscripts a single DP-28 was brought up before. Miragefla and Mr. Smith turned the idea down, because then we would have DP-28 Conscript blobs that are essentially just as lethal as any LMG42 Grenadier, LMG34 Obersoldaten, M1919A6 Riflemen, or M1919A6 Paratrooper blob (just use quantity to overcome quality) but more durable, have a Molotov, have an AT snare, cheap to reinforce, and can Oorah away from or around HMGs.
I would argue that the LMG42 upgrade for Osttruppen is acceptable because they receive a 50% accuracy penalty outside cover, making it worse than a single DP-28 outside of cover.
And giving Conscripts placebo-effect buffs like those pointless fiddling with damage of their Mosins without actually changing it's DPS totally worked out and Conscripts became useful? Funny how Osttrupen ended up having better scaling into late game thanks to their LMG than Cons. Hell even Brit engineers have better scaling into late game thanks to flamethrower or armor/vickers upgrade they have.
You know something is wrong when engineer units with nearly same reinforcement cost ends up better than core infantry of another faction
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