Do volks need some nerf? If so, how?

Volks dont need a nerf, but the cost of Infantry Sections and Rifles needs to be adjusted as they just don't trade well vs OKW. The later a game goes the Vet4/5 Volks are also pains in the ass to kill, their received accuracy is so good they are just crazy to try and take out in infantry battles, its why you see so many Pershings and M18Scots just to try and clear these bastards off the field.

I don't know how people can get away with talking about balance issues when they are blatantly spout falsehoods.

Volks don't have good received accuracy bonuses. In fact all other mainline infintry (save penials who have six men and 70% inc acc) have better received accuracy then they do.

You see Pershings and scotts because they are hard to take out and don't bleed mp while in combat.

Don't forget, for some odd reason STG44's DONT DROP, but Bars drop like fucking candy. What is with that?

Which doesn't matter since volks can't pick them up anyways.

Early pressure means you get more resources and access to vitals. More STG upgrades, a tank, your flak base.

But still you havent win the game, just carry on.
I see too many discusions here where people just exagerate their point of view to make it viable or sensible. This is one of them.
A good start is just that, the game offers plenty of comeback strategies, powerspikes and secondary plans. If you just pretend to win snowballing every time, thats just sad.

I like how you ignored the tournament comment too, USF and UKF got fucking stomped with a 20% margin in the winrate where as SU/OKW/OST all floated a 50-54% which clearly shows a problem with the two other allied factions needing adjustments.

As a matter of fact i did not see that tournament and i cant give it that much importance either, each game is different. Its like you were saying that in chess black pieces have 60% winrate so that makes them OP. Every faction has strong and weak points, even when it becomes to multiplayer, some have better 1v1 and othes serve well in teammatches. Even pros cant try every strat and know perfectly how to win, they do mistakes, so do we. If you are not making mistakes, then why bother?
Balance is not simple at all, if you take account of timings, synergies, strong apertures or defensive strategies. I dont like at all simple flathead ideas like "NERF THIS/NERF THAT"
If you consider volks shoulnt perform as they do now, elaborate and say something new. the game is supposed to be fun, not to be won every time...
Volks nerf is simply put a whine about a strong early faction, OKM. Maybe a revmap of OKM in order to make them stronger mid-game or late-game, who knows...

HK G3 is good, almost everything HK does is actually good (mp7, g3, hk416..)

But g36 is undeniably trash.

Except HK416, i'm really going for HK MP5.

USF and UK can blob infantry to counter against Volks's strength, and also remember 1 important point.

USF have access to heavy Anti Infantry vehicles like M4A3 sherman with HE round OR M8A1 Scott. While UKF have Centuar to clear those unit away while having Infantry Section with Victors pushing in with their cheap double 90muni Bren Gun that can shred Volks at medium to long range. Volks don't need a buff or nerf, is already strong as it is

the maxim would like to have a word with you

Dabs in Death loop animation.


IMO a cost increase. They are a rather large squad in games larger than 2v2 they can often times be rather easy to spam, blob, and or easy to keep on the field due to their relatively low recruit/reinforcement cost along with their versatility (flamenade, long range damage *with option for CQC package*, built in AT (build into tech).

That is not saying their performance should be changed, I feel like volks are fair and have good pros and cons but their cost efficiency is rather high.

well penals trade well vs volks... its the cons-rifles-IS that dont trade well against them... but its not a sign that volks should be nerfed... rather its a sign that cons rifles and IS should get buffs...

Less focus in Volks and more in factions overall. What i posted in some other similar thread.

OKW:
-Reduce starting mp from 340 to 290.
-SwS Trucks cost reduced by 25. From 100 to 75

Reason: when they removed OKW free tech thingies, they made SwS cost mp but they gave them 100mp extra to kick in with. The small buffs to SP (which could use some buff/adjust for late game) and nerfs to other factions early/mid game shock units made the comeback from this early game less likely.

-Non infiltration units can no longer upgrade weapons on enemy territory.

-Increase Volks sandbag build time.

-SP minesweeper package doesn't take a weapon slot.

-Flak HQ (T3) doesn't come with the flak gun active by default. Cost to build reduced to 1/3 of current cost. Only unlocks Obers + JPIV and call in tanks. Indecisive if KT (current performance) requires upgrade or not.
-Upgrade to unlock gun and units (PIV + PV) 2/3 of current cost.

Hetzer, Ostwind and Obers can arrive on a decent timing. Been able to field a TD doesn't take so long or cost so much.


USF:

RET
-Fighting positions cost reduce to 50/75mp. The difference in cost is given to the MG upgrade (now cost the difference in mp + muni)

Volley fire rework.
-Squad remains static during the duration of the ability (alternative walking speed)
-No longer receives +40% RA and -50% acc. Instead it deals -50%/-75% less damage. NOTE: if this leads to bugs, i guess we can go back to accuracy debuffs (but the problem with this is AoE suppression mechanics).
-INITIAL primary target receives a speed debuff to walking pace (see Cavalry Rifleman covering fire)
-Same ramp up suppression increase.

-REAL SMALL cost decrease on grenade upgrade.

Officers:
-No longer arrive with all 5 models when teching. After unlocking either LT/Cpt, the only model which respawns is the officer.
-Cost of both LT and Cpt tech reduced by 100mp.
Here comes the wild ideas.
Option 1:
LT and Cpt comes as a 1 model squad with the ability to "absorb/merge" any rifleman squad. If the squad has 5 models, they can MOMENTARILY become a 6 model squad. Veterancy may be lost on change.
Option 2:
Withdraw and refit. If a Rifleman squad has all their 5 models, they can be order to withdraw from battle for 200mp.

Reduce power boost from the shock value of early "free squad". You'll have to sit and reinforce to full if you want a fighting squad. On the other hand getting your tools as USF is more accessible if you don't plan on reinforcing to full either Officer or if you plan to instead levy it with your rifles.
The whack ideas comes from the situation on which you don't necessarily want SO MANY "main line" infantry units, specially if you want to use call in squads.

-Swap units from tech
Cpt: MG-M20-Stuart
LT: AT gun - Howie - AAHT

To be honest, i see issues with this combination and any other. But current combination doesn't make much sense whatsoever. LT is basically, AI inf, AI suppression, AI recon + mine, AI suppression vehicle with some anti light capabilities. Cpt is, gimmicky unit with AT support, AT gun, costly indirect fire, anti light tank with supportive AT abilities slight AI.

Major:
-Same approach as OKW. Reduce cost to 1/3. Unlocks Scott and call in tanks. 2/3 upgrade cost unlocks Sherman/Jackson.


TL;DR: nerf OKW early opening but adjust it to early-mid game transition. Give more options for mid/late game.
Make tools for USF more accessible. Reduce powerspike from free officers. Make using call in infantry as USF viable without losing squads.
If you don't like part of the list i hope you can agree with: OKW early mp presence and free officers issue. Need for some kind of mid tier for USF/OKW so we can make call in tanks more accessible but still requiring tech. 3 Tiers limits options.

As someone who plays all 5 factions, your suggestions sound great. Implementation wise will it be too much work? Especially the USF Officer thing, seems kinda complicated.

Early pressure means you get more resources and access to vitals. More STG upgrades, a tank, your flak base.

The raw fact is Volks trade incredibly well. Their cost is low for performance, their reinforcement is cheap and they are by comparison beating out more expensive allied infantry that don't get stock upgrades in the field, stock flame nades or fausts (tech is required but not SIDE tech which is important to note).

Volks dont need a nerf, but the cost of Infantry Sections and Rifles needs to be adjusted as they just don't trade well vs OKW. The later a game goes the Vet4/5 Volks are also pains in the ass to kill, their received accuracy is so good they are just crazy to try and take out in infantry battles, its why you see so many Pershings and M18Scots just to try and clear these bastards off the field.

I like how you ignored the tournament comment too, USF and UKF got fucking stomped with a 20% margin in the winrate where as SU/OKW/OST all floated a 50-54% which clearly shows a problem with the two other allied factions needing adjustments.

Like OKW, USF can just spam riflemen really, the RE got nerffed so many times there's no reason to make more than 1, and a mortar vs OKW is useless so its just utility vs OST. So both sides spam Volks/Riflemen, and OKW comes out on top usually as they not only get the best utility of a mainline infantry in the game, they don't have to run back to base to kit up and they can build their own green cover which is not available to USF without a doctrine. This all makes Volks a very competitive, and great infantry to use similiar to Conscripts except they get some great upgrades.

"Their received accuracy is so good". Eh, Riflemen and Cons get DOUBLE THE BONUSES IN RA compared to Volks. Volks have arguably the worst, or at least the 2nd worst veterancy bonuses to combat effectiveness. Maybe you're looking at the old vet bonuses from 2 years ago when Vetted Volks were beastly.

I agree that Rifles need an early game boost though, and I think sandbags should be available to all factions.

I feel like increasing costs of Volks to 260/26 and increasing sandbags building time by 5 seconds would be enough of a "Nerf"

It isn't necessary to mess with stats that much.

I feel like increasing costs of Volks to 260/26 and increasing sandbags building time by 5 seconds would be enough of a "Nerf"

When stats show that OKW/SOV and OST/SOV are nearly equal in win rates and only USF and UKF are lacking, it is not logical to search for the solution in OKW. Touching Volks would upset the delicate balance with SOV. Instead, UKF and USF infantry should be slightly buffed.

As someone who plays all 5 factions, your suggestions sound great. Implementation wise will it be too much work? Especially the USF Officer thing, seems kinda complicated.

OKW: the "only" thing which should require proper testing would be the half tech thing. Besides needing a proper icon i don't see any issue with upgrading the Flak HQ and half tech options.

USF: RET volley changes is basically mixing it up with what they are now testing with Cavalry Rifleman. I would go even further and make RET cheaper to reinforce but make so that they now get an inferior version of 1919/BARs in order to avoid the old spam.

The officer idea. The easiest one to implement is the one similar to withdraw and refit. Right now IIRC there's a similar idea on the SU campaign. It forces a unit to retreat and leave the battlefield. Problem is i don't think there's a way to take into account the number of models in the squad atm with that ability. You could instead reduce the mp to 150mp and make it available despite the amount of models in the squad.
Making units appear with less models has already been done.

Swapping units. This is my line of thought.

Any reasonable swap of units would probably make the LT the defacto choice. Making the Cpt get the core of the LT units is a bit more balanced. If that's it's too much, i would test how a 4 model Cpt with improved performance could work.

LMAO, are you serious dude? As OKW, from the very start what else can you properly build? Do you want us to build 3 Raketens or 4 Kubels? What are you on mate?

The Volksgrenadiers are the main-line infantry and blobbing is an issue IN THE ENTIRE GAME. The Volks are like not even close to good for blobbing. Try conscripts, guards, riflemen etc.. These are proper blob troops and in a blob difficult to counter. Volks? I mean what the hell dude.

I am 100% sure this is a L2P issue.

When stats show that OKW/SOV and OST/SOV are nearly equal in win rates and only USF and UKF are lacking, it is not logical to search for the solution in OKW. Touching Volks would upset the delicate balance with SOV. Instead, UKF and USF infantry should be slightly buffed.

+1

I think it should be noted that infantry sections are beastly in the early game though, but seem to not scale super well anymore. Riflemen seem to be almost the other way around, with a bit weak early game and very good (but very muni intensive) late game scaling possibility.

It should also be noted that while rifles scale great with double BARs, they also have to spend by far the most munitions exclusively on infantry-carried anti-infantry weapon upgrades out of any faction. Volks only need to spend 60 per squad for about 3 squads, IS only need to spend 90 for 2-3 (or even more variance depending on particular army compositions) squads, soviets don’t need to spend any unless they go cons ppshs or guards (in which case 60 or 75 muni per squad for 3ish or 1-2 squads respectively), grens have to spend 60 or 45 depending on lmg42s or g43s for 2-3 (maybe 4) squads. Then you have riflemen, who need to eventually spend 120 muni on BARs for 3-4 squads (depending on how many rifles you make and whether you go captain or lieutenant). USF is also the only faction that has no infantry, call-in or normal, that don’t need muni upgrades to be at maximum potential against infantry (in contrast to, for example, pgrens, commandos, shocks, or falls). That’s one of my largest pet peeves wth the faction in general.

Regarding USF I'd personally make Riflemen 10-20MP cheaper and add those (based on standard 3x Riflemen strats) spare 30-60MP to the BAR tech. This way USF can field infantry as fast as OKW can in the early game, while their scaling costs/timing remains the same as it is now.

Infantry Sections I'm not sure, I'd probably agree they're fine early on. I'm not even sure IS are really the problem for UKF. It might be worth experimenting with only one Bren slot and add a moving accuracy bonus to the Bolster tech (bringing it up to standard) so they can actually properly attack stuff.

Regarding USF I'd personally make Riflemen 10-20MP cheaper and add those (based on standard 3x Riflemen strats) spare 30-60MP to the BAR tech. This way USF can field infantry as fast as OKW can in the early game, while their scaling costs/timing remains the same as it is now.

Infantry Sections I'm not sure, I'd probably agree they're fine early on. I'm not even sure IS are really the problem for UKF. It might be worth experimenting with only one Bren slot and add a moving accuracy bonus to the Bolster tech (bringing it up to standard) so they can actually properly attack stuff.

and so they stomp on OST ? The whole "volks are op" started when UKF came out and even with the thousand nerf they are still somehow op ? They upgrade is a strictly worse bar, they have worse vet, take longer cause they have 5 lvl and still is worse than cons vet, and they only win if they are at better cover and at max range.
no the volks are OK, if the problem is that they come out too fast reduce the starting MP but reduce the sturm, kubel and truck cost accordingly.

GCS2 stats (although fairly unreliable because of the small sample size) show OST dominance over USF (61%WR for OST) so I don't know why you think they would suddenly 'stomp on OST' when Riflemen are made slightly cheaper.

I also specifically stated before that I think Volks are absolutely fine the way they are now. This includes their timing. As shown by the same GCS2 stats, OST/OKW vs SOV matchup is pretty much equal and should be taken as a basis for balancing the other factions that clearly stand out (UKF and USF). IMO this translates into leaving OKW/Volks alone (because tempering with any of it would upset the delicate balance with SOV) and look for a solution in USF/UKF.

GCS2 stats (although fairly unreliable because of the small sample size) show OST dominance over USF (61%WR for OST) so I don't know why you think they would suddenly 'stomp on OST' when Riflemen are made slightly cheaper.

GCS2 stats only show OST players did better...

volk is fine now

just buff rifleman and airborne plz

Regarding USF I'd personally make Riflemen 10-20MP cheaper and add those (based on standard 3x Riflemen strats) spare 30-60MP to the BAR tech. This way USF can field infantry as fast as OKW can in the early game, while their scaling costs/timing remains the same as it is now.

Lowering the MP cost of their upgrades can be the way. If you build 5 Rifles / ISs throughout the game, their cost effectively becomes 340MP (380 in case of ISs) per unit to stay competitive and obtaining abilities that are not noticeable better than those that other infantry get for free.