Weapon upgrades for standard infatry squads

Penal are odd fruit for a numbers of reason. They where designed to be an answer vs PG but with the tech changes they arrive earlier than PG.

They are also available in faction that already has access to elite infantry doctrinal infantry.

One could toneddown Penals(or change their spawn weapons), lower their price and offer a weapon upgrade to them.

One of the solution that I think is worth testing would be to redesign soviet stock infantry with two clear separate roles. One defensive and one offensive. That would create the space for the 2 units to coexist.

The following is an example how this can be done:

Conscripts become a defensive infantry.
They will have to lose ourah, merge and replace molotov with a frag grenade, increase the range of the AT grenade. Maybe change their vet 1 ability to hit the dirt or make hit the dirt available from vet 0. Hit the ground should scale with veterancy.

Penal become a cheap offensive infantry.
They come with PPSH around pioneer DPS and cost around 200 can merge have ourah and molotov.

Another more radical approach has them cost around 140 but catch is they can not reinforce. Now at certain vet level (which can be achieved via merge) they can "redeem themselves" and be upgraded to a normal unit.

If you guys think that cons are bad, you need to re-learn how to play this game.

DPS is MUCH consistent now, and having oohraa + snare + merge + tripwires + sandbags on a cheap squad is really attractive.
Soviets are all about the combined arms nowadays with maxims and ZiS barrages being cheaper.

Cons are sub par because they can't focus DPS. They get their vet 2 bonus accuracy and a vet 3 cooldown iirc which is nice, but that's it. It's still 6 dudes with rifles when yellow cover and durability buffs are flying around. They get a MASSIVE durability buff at vet 3, but that's easily offset by enemy weapon upgrades. And the biggest problem with all of their power coming from their vet is that if you happen to lose the squad that is it. It's gone. No attempt to recoup that loss. Lose a gren squad? Hurts. Slap an lmg on them and they will again burst down models. Not as frequently but the power is still there. Cons have no such redemption. For a squad that's supposed to be kinda trashy but expendable they are the least replaceable squad in the game.

Thisnis why I suggest SMALL passive improvements as the Soviet player techs up to sort of offset the lack of weapon upgrades and allow cons to be replaced if need be. In the end they would still be conscripts, but maybe slightly less trashy...

I think adding a weapon upgrade to conscripts would hurt diversity. However, it would be nice if they got a little buff. Maybe once AT Grenades are researched, conscripts could upgrade to lower their reinforcement cost a bit. It would be mutually exclusive with the PPSh upgrade.

Most of my problem with "Penal Battalions" is the name. It's a Squad, not a Battalion. Historically, it's silly to have so many of them and it's silly for them to have better equipment and training than normal troops. I'd prefer they were replaced with a "Frontoviki Squad" or something similar.
Then, Penal Troops could appear in a doctrine as cannon fodder, like in AEgion's mod.

I agree with Refero that something must be done here.

Historically, penal batalions were infantry squads formed of criminals and other low lifes. They often didn't even have firearms Of course we can't make the game historically correct, but don't you think that having a PENAL squad that fights a lot better than REGULAR army is kinda ridiculous?

It is true about Vet 3 Cons. If you ever happen to pick up a LMG42 or DP or LMG34 with cons they become Terminators. But you cannot count on that if your enemy plays well. Maybe we should reduce cons Vet 3 bonus but give them SVTs?

But question what to do with penals still remains. I think Vipper's idea is interesting. Maybe penals should become something like Osttruppen? If Sovits don't have nondoc elite infantry, maybe they should get non-doc relief infantry?

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Another more radical approach has them cost around 140 but catch is they can not reinforce. Now at certain vet level (which can be achieved via merge) they can "redeem themselves" and be upgraded to a normal unit.

I just cant express how much i liked that idea. Its a suicide squad anyways. Cheap AF, and vet 1 would sinergyse well too. Both satchels should be unified into one, a sticky one, to keep it as a nuke snare.
PTRS upgrade should be removed and moved to another soviet squad, since no one wants to loose their amu invest in a suicidal squad.
Maybe Snipers can upgrade into a PTRS instead. Opinions?

Historically Soviet penal battalions were disgraced officers and political criminals. Their lives were not simply thrown away by being tossed into battle unarmed. They were given the shit missions with low chance of survival but they were not unarmed untrained fodder.
But that doesn't matter to balance.

And cons getting a weapon at vet 3 still brings the problem of wtf about their grubby performance from vet 0-2 in the later game? If Obers are struggling when they come out because of vetted enemy squads with weapons despite one of the smallest spawning target sizes around and access to a FOTM lmg that offers incredible DPS how should replacement cons fare? There should be some sort of a chance for the Soviet to bridge the vet gap like all 4 other factions can because otherwise they become vet farms and a hemorrhaging manpower bleed.

Cons are sub par because they can't focus DPS. They get their vet 2 bonus accuracy and a vet 3 cooldown iirc which is nice, but that's it. It's still 6 dudes with rifles when yellow cover and durability buffs are flying around. They get a MASSIVE durability buff at vet 3, but that's easily offset by enemy weapon upgrades. And the biggest problem with all of their power coming from their vet is that if you happen to lose the squad that is it. It's gone. No attempt to recoup that loss. Lose a gren squad? Hurts. Slap an lmg on them and they will again burst down models. Not as frequently but the power is still there. Cons have no such redemption. For a squad that's supposed to be kinda trashy but expendable they are the least replaceable squad in the game.

This is why I suggest SMALL passive improvements as the Soviet player techs up to sort of offset the lack of weapon upgrades and allow cons to be replaced if need be. In the end they would still be conscripts, but maybe slightly less trashy...

Its also much, much easier to lose a vet 3 grenadier squad than a vet 3 conscript squad.

If you've lost a VET 3 conscript squad, you have to not be paying attention for a very good amount of time. Its not like they're getting 1-shot or even 2-shot by literally anything in the game.

Soviets are by far the best faction in the game, conscripts are very good, 4 cons can easily hold territory and keep team weapons functioning long after they should and they function very well into the late game, supporting those team weapons, snaring tanks and supporting either guards, penals, or shock troops.

If you decide not to build them, then you also have penals available instead, which utterly destroy any counterpart, except ambushing sturms, although with vet, you can melt sturms too. They remain amazing at anti-infantry role through-out the game, if you leave them without the PTRS upgrade.

Conscripts are literally my favorite infantry in the entire game, especially for their staying power and ease of vet and utility, the only thing that I would see go from them is their flares, to be replaced with something more useful.

I like conscripts being just that, conscripts. It feels good to win by drowning your enemy in blood, just like the USSR did historically, it tickles the RP'er in me.

If you guys think that cons are bad, you need to re-learn how to play this game.

DPS is MUCH consistent now, and having oohraa + snare + merge + tripwires + sandbags on a cheap squad is really attractive.
Soviets are all about the combined arms nowadays with maxims and ZiS barrages being cheaper.

Consistent bad DPS with poor scaling is still bad DPS with poor scaling.

What are you going to do with them in late game against vet3 LMG grens? Merge them to death? Sandbag them so much they'd have to vault everywhere they go?

If mainline infantry can not be used as effective combat unit, it will not be used at all.

Cons are sub par because they can't focus DPS. They get their vet 2 bonus accuracy and a vet 3 cooldown iirc which is nice, but that's it. It's still 6 dudes with rifles when yellow cover and durability buffs are flying around. They get a MASSIVE durability buff at vet 3, but that's easily offset by enemy weapon upgrades. And the biggest problem with all of their power coming from their vet is that if you happen to lose the squad that is it. It's gone. No attempt to recoup that loss. Lose a gren squad? Hurts. Slap an lmg on them and they will again burst down models. Not as frequently but the power is still there. Cons have no such redemption. For a squad that's supposed to be kinda trashy but expendable they are the least replaceable squad in the game.

Thisnis why I suggest SMALL passive improvements as the Soviet player techs up to sort of offset the lack of weapon upgrades and allow cons to be replaced if need be. In the end they would still be conscripts, but maybe slightly less trashy...

Imo infantry fight was in good spot before units started to be buffed left and right. Instead of solving the problem with buffing conscripts I would actually start nerfing other like VG, Penal, Guards and so on...Then most of problem that USF and UKF have would go away.

Although your suggestion about small improvement is actually far better than a weapon upgrade and both solution could apply at the same time if there was still a need for them.

Generally speaking T1 could become a building offering tech improvement to infantry better suited for heavy infantry use and T2 better suited for combined arms tactics.

Imo infantry fight was in good spot before units started to be buffed left and right. Instead of solving the problem with buffing conscripts I would actually start nerfing other like VG, Penal, Guards and so on...Then most of problem that USF and UKF have would go away.

Although your suggestion about small improvement is actually far better than a weapon upgrade and both solution could apply at the same time if there was still a need for them.

Generally speaking T1 could become a building offering tech improvement to infantry better suited for heavy infantry use and T2 better suited for combined arms tactics.

Couldn't agree more. Probably an unpopular opinion here but I feel like infantry combat was best.... When vet wasn't working. Maybe vet as a whole needs to be toned down so we have less bulletproof terminators and sticking to cover is important all game long or bleed like a stuck pig...
But yea I think Soviet should be the "globals" faction relying less on vet (as in their vet is sub par) but is offset by replacing loses slightly better than at the start of the game. I think that would be a wicked cool flavor. Keeping vetted units is obviously better but taking heavy loses is slightly more manageable maybe even promoted.... Idk.

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Hey, I think the issue with giving cons any sort of anti infantry bonus is that almost anything we come up with is going to make penals redundant. However, I do think cons need to be changed so here is my thought-which is more of an overhaul to them than a simple buff:

Remove Penal Battalions from Tier 1.

Add Conscript upgrades to Tier 1, Superior training which includes molotovs and -5% received accuracy and Anti tank which includes at grenades and option to add a single PTRS(exclusive with PPSH).

Add retreat mechanic, whenever a conscript squad successfully "long distance retreats" with at least 2 members surviving, one member is removed and added to the penal pool-punishment for retreating.

When the penal pool reaches 6 members, a Penal battalion may be recruited from the headquarters. It costs 15 munitions to summon and comes equipped with a minesweeper. This squad cannot gain veterancy and can only reinforce by taking models from the penal pool. Penal battalions have the US version of Oorah with the move penalty after the sprint for 10 munitions.

Tank hunter doctrine auto equips Penal battalions with a single PTRS and AT grenade package instead of conscripts.



What does this all do?
-Well each time a conscript retreats, essentially one of the members is converted to being a slightly more damaging, less durable infantry model. This indirectly boosts conscript anti infantry power, and combined with the anti infantry durability upgrade should allow conscripts to scale that much more.
-It keeps penals as a distinct squad from conscripts, even if there is some role overlap, penal squad usage will be different due to their expend-ability and limited accessibility based on conscript retreats
-Keeps tier 1 important by moving upgrades there
-Maintains some soviet anti vehicle options by giving cons PTRS option but without sacrificing too much AI by only giving them 1
-Adds distinct soviet flavor

Giving Cons SVTs is a bad idea because it would make them too similar to Penals.

One DP would be the better choice. And it would have to be locked behind T3 or even T4 (like the Osttruppen LMG). I don´t think this would be too OP because the DP isnt really that good.

That being said, the balance of Cons and Penals is decent at the moment, the concept of having two mainline infantry units is bad in general as Shadow has said earlier.

A good way to help Conscripts would be to merge Molotovs and AT-nades and make them 20 fuel combined. Paying 10 fuel for Molotovs and 25 fuel for AT-nades seems too much in my opinion. It just delays T70s way too much. Which is actually one of the big drawbacks of Penals vs Cons. You can always upgrade 1-2 Penals with PTRS without delaying your T70 but if you went Cons and you are being rushed by Axis LVs you have to go AT-nades and make the window of facing LVs without T70 even longer.

Giving Cons SVTs is a bad idea because it would make them too similar to Penals.

One DP would be the better choice. And it would have to be locked behind T3 or even T4 (like the Osttruppen LMG). I don´t think this would be too OP because the DP isnt really that good.

That being said, the balance of Cons and Penals is decent at the moment, the concept of having two mainline infantry units is bad in general as Shadow has said earlier.

A good way to help Conscripts would be to merge Molotovs and AT-nades and make them 20 fuel combined. Paying 10 fuel for Molotovs and 25 fuel for AT-nades seems too much in my opinion. It just delays T70s way too much. Which is actually one of the big drawbacks of Penals vs Cons. You can always upgrade 1-2 Penals with PTRS without delaying your T70 but if you went Cons and you are being rushed by Axis LVs you have to go AT-nades and make the window of facing LVs without T70 even longer.

And giving PTRS to everyone is a great idea? Guards have PTRS, Penal have PTRS and Conscripts in the doctrine. The USSR has a bad infantry design.

Giving Cons SVTs is a bad idea because it would make them too similar to Penals.

One DP would be the better choice. And it would have to be locked behind T3 or even T4 (like the Osttruppen LMG). I don´t think this would be too OP because the DP isnt really that good.
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If one has to give SVTs to conscript but makes conscripts too similar to Penals then Penal should change.

Giving lmgs 6 men mainline infantry is bad approach especially to with the curability of vet 3 conscripts. The DPS drop of is simply to slow. Grenadiers are design to fight long range if they to not perform good in their own game they will have to go for g43 in every game. Ouarh would also allow conscripts to kite any sort range infantry trying to close in. Generally it is a bad approach.

Mainline infantry should be design to perform good at certain range, its vet upgrades and so on should help in its designed role.

And giving PTRS to everyone is a great idea? Guards have PTRS, Penal have PTRS and Conscripts in the doctrine. The USSR has a bad infantry design.

Agreed.

Maybe Vet 3 should unlock non-doc hit the dirt
Iirc hit the dirt is tied to the PPSh upgrade in every commander?

Maybe Vet 3 should unlock non-doc hit the dirt
Iirc hit the dirt is tied to the PPSh upgrade in every commander?

No it comes with PPSH but does not need the upgrade. It is weird mixture that does not fit.

An offensive weapon upgrade combined with a defensive ability, end result they had to increase PPSh cost... (the same way sprint and camo are bundled together).

Hit the dirt could replace ourah and solidify conscripts as a defensive infantry.

And giving PTRS to everyone is a great idea? Guards have PTRS, Penal have PTRS and Conscripts in the doctrine. The USSR has a bad infantry design.

Apple vs oranges?

I'm quite positive that a good AI weapon will have more impact then sprinkling shitty AT one over all possible squads.

And to the previous, no, giving any kind of LMG to cons is not a good idea, single DP will do close to nothing for them except make them more immobile.

Cons will never be used as mainline infantry without weapon upgrade and no, no amount of bonus accuracy with vet will change that when ammo investment from all other factions still easily outperforms that scaling and arrives much earlier.

Apple vs oranges?

I'm quite positive that a good AI weapon will have more impact then sprinkling shitty AT one over all possible squads.

And to the previous, no, giving any kind of LMG to cons is not a good idea, single DP will do close to nothing for them except make them more immobile.

Cons will never be used as mainline infantry without weapon upgrade and no, no amount of bonus accuracy with vet will change that when ammo investment from all other factions still easily outperforms that scaling and arrives much earlier.

Of course, one DP-27 will be bad - because the DP-27 is the worst machine gun in the game and needs a buff.