Stormtrooper changes

One has a mini nuke with sorter fuse than normal grenades that could easily be abused for squad wipes the other has DOT grenade, that is the point in case you missed it.

I would also suggested you check your numbers about their DPS.

In addition nfiltration commandos can reinforce to 5 men, get access to lmgs (and ATG), get camo bonuses and have one of the highest tenacity in the game among other things.

I am not sure why you want to compare the units.

Finally if in your opinion DOT grenades and light gammon bombs are the thing than you should have no objection in my suggestion of replacing all explosives grenades for these units with DOTs, cooldown or no cooldown.

Or maybe you should stop embarrasing yourself already and check the DPS on commando sten then figure out whats bigger number 3x14 or 4x18 and then consider the fact Stormtroopers can combo that DPS with flame nade on spawn while Commandos cant?

Or maybe you should stop embarrasing yourself already and check the DPS on commando sten then figure out whats bigger number 3x14 or 4x18 and then consider the fact Stormtroopers can combo that DPS with flame nade on spawn while Commandos cant?

I guess your entitled to believe that 1.7 is almost 2.

I guess your entitled to believe that 1.7 is almost 2.

42 DPS is 60% of 72 DPS, exactly like I said - almost half of Stormtrooper on spawn without nades to help them. You should seriously start reading people posts instead of pulling strawmans

42 DPS is 60% of 72 DPS, exactly like I said - almost half of Stormtrooper on spawn without nades to help them. You should seriously start reading people posts instead of pulling strawmans

If you multiply 72 with *58% you get 42 or if multiply 42 with *1.71 you get 72

"You should seriously start reading people posts instead of pulling strawmans"

Posts #100 and #103 invised. How challenging is it for you to argue without using insults or personal remarks?

Do not force me to visit this thread again.

Let me help you with that, theo.

Storms are currently planned to spawn in with kars. They will have their mp40s on a free upgrade (I suggested it take around 10 seconds - longer would lock them out for too long, and 5 wouldn't do enough to stop retreat wipes or sudden weapon team flanks). You guys can stop your arguments and go back to flaming the balance team for our decisions.

quick edit: For the record, if it were up to me, infiltration commandos would have spawned in with rifles too instead of coming in at 3 man. I understand the argument that solutions and mechanics should be kept uniform where possible, but to me, spawning with rifles is much better than spawning at 3 men - so much so that I think it beats out the need for uniformity.

So 2 STG 44's is 60 munitions for volks, but the vote so far is to pay 80 for 4 STG 44's on Stormtroopers? this is kind of crazy if you ask me. 100 is already a discount from what should cost 120.

Just keep in mind that volks stgs are ENTIRELY different from storm/pgren stgs (and from sturm stgs, for that matter).

Let me help you with that, theo.

Storms are currently planned to spawn in with kars. They will have their mp40s on a free upgrade (I suggested it take around 10 seconds - longer would lock them out for too long, and 5 wouldn't do enough to stop retreat wipes or sudden weapon team flanks). You guys can stop your arguments and go back to flaming the balance team for our decisions.

quick edit: For the record, if it were up to me, infiltration commandos would have spawned in with rifles too instead of coming in at 3 man. I understand the argument that solutions and mechanics should be kept uniform where possible, but to me, spawning with rifles is much better than spawning at 3 men - so much so that I think it beats out the need for uniformity.

If they spawn with 4 kars why not add a cost small cost for smg and reduce price. Or have them with 2 g43 + 2 kars.

Also replacing mp40 with ppsh (maybe Thompson for west front maps) makes sense since the unit used enemy weapon in real life and it will also be easier for the play to understand that they have access to superior smgs (DPS should be tailor made for the unit).

Storms are currently planned to spawn in with kars. They will have their mp40s on a free upgrade (I suggested it take around 10 seconds - longer would lock them out for too long, and 5 wouldn't do enough to stop retreat wipes or sudden weapon team flanks). You guys can stop your arguments and go back to flaming the balance team for our decisions.

Good call, thanks for the info and the balance team is doing a very nice job with this commander revamp. I'm looking forward to play with/against all the new units and abilities.

Only thing I could recommend is to share more of these team's considerations/plans so people on the forums can better channel their feedback and senseless discussions like the above can be avoided. If you guys can find the time, of course.

If they spawn with 4 kars why not add a cost small cost for smg and reduce price. Or have them with 2 g43 + 2 kars.

Also replacing mp40 with ppsh (maybe Thompson for west front maps) makes sense since the unit used enemy weapon in real life and it will also be easier for the play to understand that they have access to superior smgs (DPS should be tailor made for the unit).

No REAL reason for why not, a few minor though, I guess:

Theres nothing that really necessitates the cost reduction. A lot of units are basically assumed to never be used without their upgrade (id include both live and revamp storms in this), and I currently think thats alright. That means storms would cost the same either way (im assuming its a manpower cost you mean? Unless youre suggesting an ober-esque lower manpower cost, increase muni cost kind of change). If its a muni cost, I think ostheer already has enough to spend their muni on (really interested if people disagree on this though, id imagine somethin like 300/45(muni) is more than option).

2 g43 + 2 kars would mean that elite troops storms would get up to 4 g43s, which would give them insane moving performance. They could be denied access to the upgrade (maybe thats out of scope since adjusting access to an ability thats not in the doctrine might not be allowed), but then it might be a weird exception given that pgrens have access to it. That specific loadout could also still be too much immediate wipe potential given how good the g43 is on the move.

Nothing to really necessitate giving them ppshs or thompsons outside of it being cool stylistically and apparently historically accurate. Also, I dont think theres a way to change loadout depending on which front the map is on. Portraits are different depending on season, but loadout and front arent things that can be linked, I think.

I guess more than anything, these are just my thoughts on the subject. Messy formatting, but I dont think thats something thats matters too much.

No REAL reason for why not, a few minor though, I guess:

...(really interested if people disagree on this though, id imagine somethin like 300/45(muni) is more than option).

Having a mu cost for the weapon upgrade while less manpower at spawning would mean that player would risk less by using the unit.

2 g43 + 2 kars would mean that elite troops storms would get up to 4 g43s, which would give them insane moving performance...

The g43 could grenadier ones and not Pgs.

I really don't see a reason behind the high accuracy on the move of some "carbine" type weapons. I guess one could lower it.

In addition one should also have look at tactical movement and either have it require a weapon upgrade or replace with a defensive ability.
Small squads with high DPS tend to perform inconstantly.

Nothing to really necessitate giving them ppshs or thompsons outside of it being cool stylistically and apparently historically accurate. Also, I dont think theres a way to change loadout depending on which front the map is on. Portraits are different depending on season, but loadout and front arent things that can be linked, I think.
...

Uniform can changes so maybe weapon skins can also change?

So, a word on storms nades?
Because they are the only infiltration unit that doesn't spawn with all abilities on cooldown(which again, includes inferior partisan molotovs).

Wait, so the MP40s they're getting ARE the utter trash MP40s that Assault Grenadiers have??

Either give them the same weapon potency as Panzer Grenadiers and replace bundle grenades with a bunch of different utility abilities, or don't change their weapons at all.

Assault Grenadiers are trash because MP40s are trash. We don't need yet another unit with the single worst weapon in the entire game.

Of course, you COULD buff MP40s across the board, but I guess Ostheer isn't allowed to have the same kind of close range potency that Allies get (running across an open field into enemy fire, getting into the same cover as the enemy rifle unit, and wiping the rifle squad) because of the absurd faction "role" system and how Ostheer is supposedly "defensive" (in a game where units can't see five feet over an open field and thus can never fire at max range).

Wait, so the MP40s they're getting ARE the utter trash MP40s that Assault Grenadiers have??

Stormtrooper MP 40: 0/10/15/17/20/25/35

18.69/18.69/7.14/2.449/0.717/0.1

Have Commando-esque MP40s, thank you very much.

Well, then I fail to see the problem.

Two units can both have the same weapons but vastly different support abilities.

The flame grenades are weird, but they could have all sorts of abilities like mines, booby traps, smoke, flares, you name it -- then you have a close range assault and support unit that doesn't interfere with Panzer Grenadiers who have bundle grenades and 2x Panzerschrecks.

Maybe just don't give Stormtroopers Panzerscheck upgrade at all. But whatever the final version, there's plenty of variety to be had through availability of abilities and upgrades. I think the people claiming they'll be too similar to Panzer Grenadiers no matter what are overexaggerating.

Only thing I could recommend is to share more of these team's considerations/plans so people on the forums can better channel their feedback and senseless discussions like the above can be avoided. If you guys can find the time, of course.

So this is all probably more than I should say.

I think there's a very clear reason why we (and basically every game company/dev) aren't more open.

Just check back to initial the 221/223 suggestion on the commander feedback thread. A lot of people were coming at the idea and assumed a lot of things that weren't necessarily true. The idea was to ask if the idea of the unit was interesting and had potential. Even though nothing solid about the unit was given (because, honestly, nothing solid about the unit was decided), people made their own assumptions about what the unit was going to be and why the unit was a bad idea because of it. They started to oppose to the concept of the unit without knowing how it would even work and how it would actually be like. Because of this, I imagine impressions of the 223 when it actually was implemented were more negative than they needed to be. While it honestly did makes us more aware of a few things to consider with the implementation of the vehicle when it came down to it (pop cap, cost, etc.), most of those issues would have been ironed out with feedback after the unit's release anyway.

Similar to that, others were starting to doomsay in response to a 221/223/concept we weren't even quite sure we wanted to go with. Essentially, they started to trash on the team for even considering an idea... Personally, I prefer to be trashed on and lose reputation after I massively screw up, not before

In a slightly different vein, you probably realize that Andy is the main person delivering all of the official information. He works for a company, officially represents this company to the community, and has to maintain a professional reputation in this community. Sharing ideas on the forum before they're potentially ready kind of skirts this line of being an official presence. I think it would honestly be unreasonable to expect him to share this much when he directly represents Relic's brand and is expected to remain professional.

As for the non-Relic members, the identities of the people on the balance team were not disclosed and there's a reason for that. You saw how...personal people got about the last revamp and balance patches. Honestly, look at how heated some people got about THIS revamp. If Andy delivers the official changes, then feedback usually remains constructive and useful. If an individual on the team (besides Andy) shares anything about changes, then they personally become a target, and people who dislike the changes start to attack them. Feedback then seems to become less about the changes, and more about bashing whoever is deemed responsible for them (in this case, that would usually be the person who shares the change). Asking a member of the team to go on the forums and say "hey, we're considering this direction, what do you think" is potentially asking them to be bashed for an idea that might not make it to the actual revamp preview and which might not even be theirs - again, all without facilitating meaningful discussion about the concept in question.

That said, the spawn in with kars is: a low risk change, something we were convinced was a good idea, almost certainly going to make it in to the next iteration, and going to stop a bunch of users from flaming and arguing with each other.

Honestly, the last reason was why I let everyone know, otherwise, the ~2-3 day wait for the next iteration's notes to be officially released is usually fine.

So, a word on storms nades?
Because they are the only infiltration unit that doesn't spawn with all abilities on cooldown(which again, includes inferior partisan molotovs).

Actually the ability tactical movement is in cool-down only their grenades are not.

The unit is designed to destroy cashes and the flame grenade is one of the tools to achieve that.

One could simply have partisan molotovs also not be on cooldown on spawn (then one should also add a premium on the unit for being able to infiltrate and bring it inline with other similar units, and also give JLRI a grenade since they do not have one as other infiltration infantry have).

Give them cache-destroying nades, Teller Mines, and maybe booby traps at Vet 1 or something.

For a "defensive" faction, having literally only one unit (that is 100% not combat viable) have anti-tank mines is actually absurd when you think about it. Need more mining options, and a "behind the lines" sabotage unit is the perfect opportunity to do just that.

2 g43 + 2 kars would mean that elite troops storms would get up to 4 g43s, which would give them insane moving performance. They could be denied access to the upgrade (maybe thats out of scope since adjusting access to an ability thats not in the doctrine might not be allowed), but then it might be a weird exception given that pgrens have access to it. That specific loadout could also still be too much immediate wipe potential given how good the g43 is on the move.

You know, there's always the possibility of just giving Elite Troops the Jaeger Command squad, or some other kind of unique squad. That kind of seems to be the trend and would solve any discrepancies between Close the Pocket and Elite Troops.

It's like balance discussions have been so warped by Scope restrictions that everyone's started to self-Scope.

So this is all probably more than I should say.

Probably.

In the end people either know and can recognize the history and pattern with community interactions or they don't.