Buff Shocks

Thats exactly the point. Shocks are elite CQC squad utterly overshadowed by PPSh cons.

Yes but what does "elite" have anything to do with it? According to you shocks are elite, and pgrens are elite. Shocks will beat pgrens 1v1 in a fight. Penals and pgrens could go either way. But penals are fine and shocks are not.

To me this shows its probably a cost and timing thing. Ppsh cons may be too cheap, perhaps shocks should be cheaper with a weapon upgrade. My point is I think the squad stats are fine, and that I'm tired of how many people treat "elite" as some official class of units.

It feels odd to say that considering I dont think very highly of Shocks myself but Shocks aren´t as bad as people claim in this thread. They are situational but if you play on a CQC map they can be good. Just require lots of micro, flanking, smokes etc to be effective. The biggest issuse shocks have is that they dont come in very good doctrines.

Imagine if there was a Radio Intercept/Shocks/filler/T34/85/IL2 doctrine. I bet Shocks would be used pretty often then. The best doctrine that offers Shocks is Soviet Shock Army but then you have PPSH in it which overlaps with Shocks too much. There is usually little point in getting shocks when you have several vetted PPSH cons running around alrady.

if penals are not elite infantry is any infantry really elite?
6 man squad with semi autos and incredible accuracy buffs...

ON TOPIC
i agree shocks are good when they come out, but REALLY fall off
so adjusting their vet i think is the way to go.
iirc they only get a small rec acc buff at vet 2 as far as durability goes which quite franckly is unacceptable for their price and limitations
while lacking armour and a model (and the dps i guess too get off my back) ass grens get nearly 40% reduction in target size in 2 vet levels and have sprint (and that fun grenade ability)
shocks vet sucks
especially the garbage waste trip flares, because you are going to be using your expensive elite CQB squad to lay traps...

...
especially the garbage waste trip flares, because you are going to be using your expensive elite CQB squad to lay traps...

Just pointing out that trip wire flare was removed. You can check the changes to shock troops in page 1.

if penals are not elite infantry is any infantry really elite?
6 man squad with semi autos and incredible accuracy buffs...

Erm what? So in your opinion Penals are the best infantry in COH2 and thus the most elite?

OK.

shock is very effective in counterattack tactics but i dont know from what i hear for mother russia is getting a nerf..
the buff icon in shock trooper make me instantly give up my position because how nightmare it is the shock trooper become..

oh yeah one more thing if you treat shock as cqb and flanker it do the job perfectly
just dont use shock troops as it name imply its a lie..
so no thx dont buff the shock pls..

Thats exactly the point. Shocks are elite CQC squad utterly overshadowed by PPSh cons.
Riflemen with BARs overshadowing Paratroopers and Rangers was not okay and both of these squads buffed as result.
Shocks still remain useless because their cost in no way justfies their lack of gap closer/lack of mid-range DPS which results in them doing nothing but harming you by bleeding your MP rather than your enemy.

It's highly unlikely that Shocks will be matched by any other infantry on the field when they arrive at 2 CP's, they are a shock unit when they come that early. If you are calling them in mid to late game with no vet and they get pwned, then you are using them wrong.

If you want to buff them, then in turn they must come later like 4 CP.

It feels odd to say that considering I dont think very highly of Shocks myself but Shocks aren´t as bad as people claim in this thread. They are situational but if you play on a CQC map they can be good. Just require lots of micro, flanking, smokes etc to be effective. The biggest issuse shocks have is that they dont come in very good doctrines.

Imagine if there was a Radio Intercept/Shocks/filler/T34/85/IL2 doctrine. I bet Shocks would be used pretty often then. The best doctrine that offers Shocks is Soviet Shock Army but then you have PPSH in it which overlaps with Shocks too much. There is usually little point in getting shocks when you have several vetted PPSH cons running around alrady.

It feels odd that I wholeheartedly agree with you, lol.

Shocks aren't in very good doctrines, while Guards are amazingly good AND come in doctrines packed full of awesome stuff. Shock Army and Shock Rifle are pretty mediocre.

Imho I do think Shocks need better veterancy because their vet is pretty terrible, but they shouldn't get much else. They're a CQB unit and they do that job extremely well. You can't charge across red cover at multiple STG volks squad and then yell "OMFG Shocks suck Axis OP".

@vipper I apologize, forgot about that. Even then -5mu on the smoke grenade is right up there with +1 shell on barrage the ml20 has as far as lame vet 1 abilities that barely change anything. You have units that get durability right off the cuff and cooldown modifiers for their abilities and shocks get -5mu smoke... Hell Ost med kit would be a better vet ability.

@vipper I apologize, forgot about that. Even then -5mu on the smoke grenade is right up there with +1 shell on barrage the ml20 has as far as lame vet 1 abilities that barely change anything. You have units that get durability right off the cuff and cooldown modifiers for their abilities and shocks get -5mu smoke... Hell Ost med kit would be a better vet ability.

I apoogise if my post made you feel you had to apologise for a simple mistake anyone of us could had made.

The only point I was tring to make is that Shock no longer get "trip wire" flares. The current vet 1 bonuses are -33% in smoke grenade cost and -40% in smoke grenade CD (moved from vet 2).

They are not actually not a very ipressive vet bonusses (and thankfuly not as broken as the ones Guards get). My suggestion would be to add the ability "bulletproof" reducing received accuracy and DPS for the duration (ability could scale with veternacy if needed).

An Mu ability that reduced bleed would help shock perfom better without the risk of becoming OP.

I apoogise if my post made you feel you had to apologise for a simple mistake anyone of us could had made.

The only point I was tring to make is that Shock no longer get "trip wire" flares. The current vet 1 bonuses are -33% in smoke grenade cost and -40% in smoke grenade CD (moved from vet 2).

They are not actually not a very ipressive vet bonusses (and thankfuly not as broken as the ones Guards get). My suggestion would be to add the ability "bulletproof" reducing received accuracy and DPS for the duration (ability could scale with veternacy if needed).

An Mu ability that reduced bleed would help shock perfom better without the risk of becoming OP.

I use the vet guide on here for things I don't recall and it looks like it's not up to date. Seems all the resources are stagnant now. I hate pushing false information and appreciate your corrections.

I agree a better active ability would help a lot. Something that helps them close when everything and thir dog has an Lmg or STG would go a long way. Smoke helps but once vet starts stacking shocks are left leaving much to be desired.

... I hate pushing false information and appreciate your corrections.
...

Thanks for the appreciation, imo CoH2 forums would be greatly improved if people focused more in promoting the correct informations, instead of turning thing into personal matters and trying to "bash some noobs".

^ I like the irony of the post above, considering the fact that its a personal matter.

Regarding shocks themselves, simple cost reduction and/or allowing them to toss 2 nades again could fix them. Its not like they were any "op" when they could do that, they were already outclassed by literally everything even pre nerf.

^I like the irony of the post above. Showing up while we talk about promoting correct information.
Shock troops simply where not nerfed in the last patch they where touched as claimed in the post above.

Disallowing to use 2 nades one after another is a nerf.

You're attempting another semantics war.

^ I like the irony of the post above, considering the fact that its a personal matter.

Regarding shocks themselves, simple cost reduction and/or allowing them to toss 2 nades again could fix them. Its not like they were any "op" when they could do that, they were already outclassed by literally everything even pre nerf.

Firstly, Unnecessary.
Secondly, I don't know if it would "fix them" as you just said they were already outclassed by literally everything so making their only effective use kinda cheesy and entirely dependant on munitions is bad design.

Disallowing to use 2 nades one after another is a nerf.

Yes and removing trip wire flares was also a nerf but the rest of changes where buffs. Overall Shock where not nerfed and claiming that they where is simply misleading.

Patch notes:
Shock Troops (All Commanders)
We are enhancing the utility of Shock Troops to reduce their long-time bleed and make them equally viable against both Axis factions. We are also improving the performance of the Shock Troops’ grenade to be on par with other anti-infantry specialists.

Reinforcement time reduced from 6.5 secs to 5.5 secs
Reinforcement cost reduced from 33 to 31
Tripwire flares removed
Veterancy 1 reduces smoke grenade cost 15 to 10
Smoke grenade and HE grenade now share cooldown
Veterancy 2 smoke recharge (-40%) moved to Veterancy 1; now also affects normal grenades
HE Grenade far AOE increased from 0.15 to 0.5
HE Grenade damage type changed from small explosive to big explosive (now damages buildings)
-----

Shock Troops
Shock Troops have been adjusted to have lower bleed effects on a player’s manpower due to their short-range while their grenade has been improved to assist with flanks and dislodging team weapons.

Reinforcement time from 6.5 to 5.5 (buff)
Reinforcement cost from 33 to 31 (buff)
Trip-Wire Flares removed (nerf)
Veterancy 1 now reduces Smoke Grenade cost from 15 to 10 (buff)
Veterancy 2 -40% Smoke cooldown moved to veterancy 1 (buff)
Grenade Far AOE from 0.15 to 0.5 (buff)
Grenades now share a cooldown (nerf)
Grenade damage type from small explosive to big explosive; can now damage ambient buildings (buff)

Note that the grenade does more than 3 times damage Far which is major buff and the reason why it share CD with smoke grenade.

You're attempting another semantics war.

You are the only one who likes wars and you started making provoking comments about my posts, if one is attempting a war that is you.

Shock troops have been nerfed, even if you keep on not accepting that. Really, there's absolutely no point in arguing the schematical differences between "nerf" and "adjustment" just because it is what it says in the patch notes. What matters is that they are now in a worse state than before in relationship to everything in the game, but you are the only one hitting the same dead horse over and over again to compare the shock troops in pure statistical vacuum.

It doesn't even matter if they were nerfed or adjusted or buffed or added or what ever at this point. They are underwhelming for cost and scaling and dragging down their doctrines being overshadowed by the admittedly overperforming ppsh cons. What was doesn't matter only what is and what (maybe) will be

Yes and removing trip wire flares was also a nerf but the rest of changes where buffs. Overall Shock where not nerfed and claiming that they where is simply misleading.

Lets fact check a bit, shall we?

Patch notes:

Shock Troops
Shock Troops have been adjusted to have lower bleed effects on a player’s manpower due to their short-range while their grenade has been improved to assist with flanks and dislodging team weapons.

Reinforcement time from 6.5 to 5.5 (buff)
Reinforcement cost from 33 to 31 (buff)

Yes, because they were unbearable to reinforce even if you had just 1. They ARE incapable of inflicting more bleed then they receive, therefore they are inefficient.
That problem was slightly diminished, not solved by reinforce cost.

Trip-Wire Flares removed (nerf)

Poor shocks, the ONLY soviet unit with that ability had it removed, how will we ever go over it?
The ability should have NEVER been there in the first place, there should be something useful and meaningful, designed for the unit specifically, not a general "slap it on everything with 2 legs and no setup time" thing that no one sane even used on them.

Veterancy 1 now reduces Smoke Grenade cost from 15 to 10 (buff)

Completely irrelevant due to not being able to throw 2 nades.

Veterancy 2 -40% Smoke cooldown moved to veterancy 1 (buff)

Same as above.

Grenade Far AOE from 0.15 to 0.5 (buff)

Normalization, it was weakest nade in game and it isn't any stronger then any other nade, still is weaker then plenty of them.

Grenades now share a cooldown (nerf)

A unit killing one as its only gimmick was stripped from it.

Grenade damage type from small explosive to big explosive; can now damage ambient buildings (buff)

Again, normalization and hardly shocks specific change, ALL nades were changed this way or already could do it for a long time.

Note that the grenade does more than 3 times damage Far which is major buff and the reason why it share CD with smoke grenade.

Instead of using "now 3 times more!" advertisement misleading slang, how about you use actual damage values compared to guards nade, rifles nade, rifle nade and bundle nade?
Because "3 times more" out of low value to bring it up to standard isn't making them any stronger, its just a nade aoe normalization for THE weakest nade in game.