Buff Shocks

PPSh can be a weapon upgrade too, default Paras and Rangers also get mid-range battle rifles as default.

If they start with SVT they are simply overlaping with Penals.

Factional differences are another thing that works in Shocks buff favor. Shocks dont synergize well with their faction, only one commander has PPShCon/Shock combo and normal Cons are pretty bad support unit for Shocks unlike riflemen who are gret at mid/close range

Actually no, faction are completely different with different tech structures different strenght and weakness and different strategies. In addition Soviet as faction currently perform better than USF.

Finally the strength of USF mainline infantry and the timing of elite, means that USF elite must be really really strong to be worth buying. (that is why I suggest moving USF elite to CP1 and adjusting cost performance).

If they start with SVT they are simply overlaping with Penals.


Actually no, faction are completely different with different tech structures different strenght and weakness and different strategies. In addition Soviet as faction currently perform better than USF.

Finally the strength of USF mainline infantry and the timing of elite, means that USF elite must be really really strong to be worth buying. (that is why I suggest moving USF elite to CP1 and adjusting cost performance).

Can you stop strawmanning and derailing this threads topic?

Dont compare Shocks to Penals, Penals are non-doctrinal, non-elite squad that is not designed for CQC. The whole point of this discussion how to buff Shocks, not your listen to your ideas why "we cant buff Shocks, they will OP"
This kind of mentality made more than half of doctrinal Soviet roster a laughing stock (Hello KV-2, Shocks, Partisans et cetera)

If you need a mid range DPS unit I suggest you use Penals.

Comparing Soviet units and USF units is misleading since the factions are differently designed. In addition Paras/Ranger are CP 3/ have to pay munition for weapons and have to worth building over riflemen who are better than conscripts.

As I have explained default weapons should follow weapon profiles and not stretched to fit units. If a unit is designed for mid range, it needs a mid range weapon and not a smg.

Finally keep in mind that Thompson is a weapon upgrade, not default weapon and has to justify cost.
Your suggestion is far from a no-brainer.

Shoocks are a super close quarters combat unit, it deals damage only to the distance of the punch (and that's why the impossibility of simultaneous use of smoke and fragmentation destroyed this unit). If they increase the distance to the level of the Ranger/Paratrooper, it is still a close distance and not an middle distance.

Can you stop strawmanning and derailing this threads topic?

Dont compare Shocks to Penals, Penals are non-doctrinal, non-elite squad that is not designed for CQC. The whole point of this discussion how to buff Shocks, not your listen to your ideas why "we cant buff Shocks, they will OP"
This kind of mentality made more than half of doctrinal Soviet roster a laughting stock (Hello KV-2, Shocks, Partisans et cetera)

Can you relax a bit, you suggested that they start with a mid range weapon and upgrade to ppsh. That would be an SVT and that would make them overlap with Penals.

In addition Penal are an elite infantry the same way PG are an elite infantry, since both are more expensive and better than their respective mainline infantry.

What I have simply pointed out so far is that changing the weapon profile of the ppsh smg is badly designed way to buff Shocks, the same way that PTRS and ST44 performing differently across units is also bad design.

These 2-3 SVT's arent there to buff shocks, they are drawback to make sure they wont exterminate everyone in point blank ranges.

In exchange shocks get PPSh range increased, in combination with SVT's it would make Shocks useful at midrange

I think that this in combination with the armor would make them pretty OP in the early to mid game when there are only unvetted/unupgraded grens/volks around.

Get your facts straight: SU has only two elite infantry squads - Shocks and Guards. Penals are not elite and never were

Rangers and Paratroopers also armed with mid-range rifles by default which makes similar to Riflemen, yet somehow you managed not to mention that.

What you do in this thread is called "Whataboutism" and thats like 90% of your posts, rest are stawmans

Shoocks are a super close quarters combat unit, it deals damage only to the distance of the punch (and that's why the impossibility of simultaneous use of smoke and fragmentation destroyed this unit). If they increase the distance to the level of the Ranger/Paratrooper, it is still a close distance and not an middle distance.

Shock weapon behave similarly with the majority of smg units like assault grenadier, partisans, smg VG, royal engineers, pioneers, commandos, artillery officer. Thy have most of the DPS in range around 10 reducing fast beyond in longer ranges.

Shocks have one of highest DPS at range 10-12 which is not "punch distance" and they little reason to move closer than 10.

Thompson is the anomaly here with good DPS to range up to 24 (which is far to mid).
Note that Thompson is an upgrade for Rangers and Paras and not default weapon and has to justify the cost investment of replacing the very good m1a1 carbine.

I think that this in combination with the armor would make them pretty OP in the early to mid game when there are only unvetted/unupgraded grens/volks around.

How is this going to make them OP? Their CQC DPS will go down thanks to SVT's and midrange combat will still be more preferable for Volks than close combat with Shocks. Grens with G43 will actually do better against them at close range too

Get your facts straight: SU has only two elite infantry squads - Shocks and Guards. Penals are not elite and never were

Rangers and Paratroopers also armed with mid-range rifles by default which makes similar to Riflemen, yet somehow you managed not to mention that.

Penal and PG are elite stock infantry since they are more expensive and better armed than mainline infantry. If you want to give a new meaning to the term "elite" you have to provide a definition.
I have explained how I use the term and see little pointing in actually continuing this.

What you do in this thread is called "Whataboutism" and thats like 90% of your posts, rest are stawmans

What you are doing in this thread is being toxic for no good reason so pls stop trying to turn a balance issue into personal issue.

Penal and PG are elite stock infantry since they are more expensive and better armed than mainline infantry. If you want to give a new meaning to the term "elite" you have to provide a definition.
I have explained how I use the term and see little pointing in actually continuing this.


What you are doing in this thread is being toxic for no good reason so pls stop trying to turn a balance issue into personal issue.

So you basically admit you have no idea what you're talking about or whats the definition of an elite squad is?
Heres a fact: PGrens and Stormtroopers are elite infantry squads of Wehr. Shocks and Guards are elite infantry squad of SU.
No other elite units for eastern front factions exist.
Also calling you out on constantly engaging in whataboutism is not toxicity. Unlike you I'm actually trying to contribute to thread, not derail it

So you basically admit you have no idea what you're talking about or whats the definition of an elite squad is?
Heres a fact: PGrens and Stormtroopers are elite infantry squads of Wehr. Shocks and Guards are elite infantry squad of SU.
No other elite units for eastern front factions exist.
Also calling you out on constantly engaging in whataboutism is not toxicity. Unlike you I'm actually trying to contribute to thread, not derail it

You are actually doing exactly just that and you derailing this thread. So ask yourself and pls do not post here, "what is the difference between PG and Penal that make one an "elite" unit and the other not"

I have explained what are the issues with buffing PPsh DPS in mid range and have little to add. You are of course entitled to your opinion.
bye bye.

You are actually doing exactly just that and you derailing this thread. So ask yourself and pls do not post here, "what is the difference between PG and Penal that make one an "elite" unit and the other not"

I have explained what are the issues with buffing PPsh DPS in mid range and have little to add. You are of course entitled to your opinion.
bye bye.

This is last time I'm bothering respoding to you.

Difference of between mainline infantry squads and elite squads are their weapons upgrades along with baseline performance. Penals perform equal to riflemen on single model basis. They also lack proper weapon upgrades and scale similary to other mainline infantries of other factions. This does not make them elite squad, merely more equal to compared to their peers in comparison to Conscripts.

PanzerGrens have huge received accuracy bonuses and their default weaponry is far better than those of baseline infatries, they also have powerful weapon upgrade options and scale better into late game.

This is last time I'm bothering respoding to you.

Difference of between mainline infantry squads and elite squads are their weapons upgrades along with baseline performance. Penals perform equal to riflemen on single model basis. They also lack proper weapon upgrades and scale similary to other mainline infantries of other factions. This does not make them elite squad, merely more equal to compared to their peers in comparison to Conscripts.

PanzerGrens have huge received accuracy bonuses and their default weaponry is far better than those of baseline infatries, they also have powerful weapon upgrade options and scale better into late game.

If you want to continue this you have to argue it with Relic and creators of the guides of this site.
From Soviet units guide which is updated recently and included the change to Penals in price abilities and weapon upgrades:
{Penal Battalion
"Elite anti-infantry squad."Can be upgraded with a Flamethrower and can throw a satchel charge for high area damage.

Production/reinforce cost: 300/25 manpower
Population cap: 8

Abilities:
Throw Satchel Charge - 45 munitions; Can be used on vehicles to cause engine damage

Targeted Satchel Charge - 45 munitions; Can target enemy vehicles (exlusively) to deal heavy damage

To the Last Man - passive, Increases weapon accuracy, rate of fire and improves survivability when the squad loses members.

Upgrades:

PTRS 41 Anti-tank rifles - 60 munitions, grants 2 PTRS 41 AT rifles to the Penal squad

Tips: Penal Battalions carry much more powerful rifles than conscript Mosin-Nagant rifles. Penal battalion's satchel charges are excellent for destroying emplacements, decrewed heavy weapons (such as Pak 40s), and immobilized vehicles. Can be used on incoming vehicles to cause engine damage. The PTRS 41 AT rifles upgrade nerfs the Penals anti-infantry capabilities severly, use it only as a last ditch effort against the light vehicles. }



https://www.coh2.org/guides/2574/soviet-unit-guide
(edited to include full text for penal in guide)

If you want to continue this you have to argue it with Relic and creators of the guides of this site.
From Soviet units guide:
Penal Battalion
"Elite anti-infantry squad."

https://www.coh2.org/guides/2574/soviet-unit-guide

2013 guide... Lets see
"Elite anti-infantry squad. Can be upgraded with a Flamethrower "
Nope, you're not going to bait me into wasting even more time with this.

How is this going to make them OP? Their CQC DPS will go down thanks to SVT's and midrange combat will still be more preferable for Volks than close combat with Shocks. Grens with G43 will actually do better against them at close range too

Because with the armor combined with heavy cover it would take absolutely forever to take them down (especially with unvetted/unupgraded grens or volks in the early game), which is fine right now because they won't do much damage in return. Giving them good mid range DPS would make them way too cost effective at stalling/defending I think.

Because with the armor combined with heavy cover it would take absolutely forever to take them down (especially with unvetted/unupgraded grens or volks in the early game), which is fine right now because they won't do much damage in return. Giving them good mid range DPS would make them way too cost effective at stalling/defending I think.

If shocks are in heavy cover and not moving out then anyone can just bleed them from 20+ range with LMGs/STG's. Besides I never suggested PPSh get same DPS as thompsons, just extended range, that alone wouldnt make shocks superior to LMG/STG's

So you basically admit you have no idea what you're talking about or whats the definition of an elite squad is?
Heres a fact: PGrens and Stormtroopers are elite infantry squads of Wehr. Shocks and Guards are elite infantry squad of SU.
No other elite units for eastern front factions exist.

"Elite" is little more than a descriptive word, and doesn't really mean much to the conversation. Penals are very strong, and unless you can't dodge the potato masher, they can go toe-toe with pgrens in a head to head fight.

You say the schreck upgrade is part of what makes pgrens elite, but when they get it they can be forced off by much weaker infantry in exchange for being decent vs mediums. They're still a 4 man squad which can only be so good for AT.

Shocks are "elite" but can't fight a single thing outside close range. Depending on the situation it can very easily be better to just get another penal squad, or go ppsh cons if you want cqc. Neither of those squads are "elite" (or are they) but can easily be better options.

"Elite" is little more than a descriptive word, and doesn't really mean much to the conversation. Penals are very strong, and unless you can't dodge the potato masher, they can go toe-toe with pgrens in a head to head fight.

You say the schreck upgrade is part of what makes pgrens elite, but when they get it they can be forced off by much weaker infantry in exchange for being decent vs mediums. They're still a 4 man squad which can only be so good for AT.

Shocks are "elite" but can't fight a single thing outside close range. Depending on the situation it can very easily be better to just get another penal squad, or go ppsh cons if you want cqc. Neither of those squads are "elite" (or are they) but can easily be better options.

Thats exactly the point. Shocks are elite CQC squad utterly overshadowed by PPSh cons.
Riflemen with BARs overshadowing Paratroopers and Rangers was not okay and both of these squads buffed as result.
Shocks still remain useless because their cost in no way justfies their lack of gap closer/lack of mid-range DPS which results in them doing nothing but harming you by bleeding your MP rather than your enemy.