Give me a reason why KV8 is OP?

I've lost KV-8 to two PGrens and a Panzer 4...to me it seems like it burns the same as the FlamerHalftrack,which surprisingly or not took out 4 of my Conscript squads in mere seconds before any of them managed to throw a grenade...
My point being both KV-8 and FlameHT burn the same,why nerf just the Soviet one which doesn't come fast as the FlameHT?
This is just my opinion so don't hate,for me they all burn the same

I've lost KV-8 to two PGrens and a Panzer 4...to me it seems like it burns the same as the FlamerHalftrack,which surprisingly or not took out 4 of my Conscript squads in mere seconds before any of them managed to throw a grenade...
My point being both KV-8 and FlameHT burn the same,why nerf just the Soviet one which doesn't come fast as the FlameHT?
This is just my opinion so don't hate,for me they all burn the same

They don't actually burn the same. Not even close on a stats level.

I've played some games as a German today and I have had some KV-8 encounters but every single time a PzIV tank was more than enough to deal with it. Even with KV-8 being supported by rest of his army and some SU-85 sniping from the distance.
I don't think there is an issue with a unit itself. You will be allright as long as you will not try to use PG to deal with it. Not a single one of my retreating units got killed.
Not so sure why all this fuss regarding this unit.

That is so much bullshit it is unbelievable.

Having been the person who actually played that game and remembered how it went, knowing how hilariously OP the KV-8 was I retreated the instant it appeared in my LoS.

Retreating before it even fired a shot(Or flame, w/e), and dying anyway? Yeah, that's really fucking stupid no matter how close I was.

Having been someone who has both used the KV-8 and been on the receiving end, it's simplistically easy to chase a unit down across the map and kill it. It's not like Germans have a vehicle snare that can stop me.

Get it out onto the field, attack-move to base, profit. Kill his entire army or back-tech him by killing his vehicle production buildings. Easy money.

I agree buddy, I hate seeing KV8 myself. Personally I hate the unit that allows someone of a lot less skill to do rampage on me without actually being responsible for it.

Regardless, tho I always maintained that it is not such huge issue for me because I can still win comfortably against KV8 in the end. Like you did in the video....

I am sure they will have a good look at KV8, Brumbar, Tiger, IS152 (or whatever the number was) I just don't find it as pressing issue atm. Relic said they want to have linear approach to balancing game: early>mid>late game. Fixing heavy armor isn't their priority, because its pointless if early/mid game isn't balanced (unless some heavy armor or unit is crushing game balance, they wont do much about it)
I can't remember where I read that, so can't provide the link. But it was from one of Relic Devs

Patience

I've lost KV-8 to two PGrens and a Panzer 4...to me it seems like it burns the same as the FlamerHalftrack,which surprisingly or not took out 4 of my Conscript squads in mere seconds before any of them managed to throw a grenade...
My point being both KV-8 and FlameHT burn the same,why nerf just the Soviet one which doesn't come fast as the FlameHT?
This is just my opinion so don't hate,for me they all burn the same

Firstly, the damage dealt is entirely different, as well as the cooldown, reload times, and fire-on-the-move capability. In all regards the Flame HT is weaker.

Secondly, they both come on entirely different platforms. The AT Grenade has guaranteed penetration on a Flamer HT whereas a Faust does not on a KV-8. With the increased damage on the AT Nade, it makes it entirely possible to take down a Flamer HT with some well microed Conscripts.

In addition to that fact, the general durability is cheaper and the timing is off. In the time I have a Flamer HT out, it is entirely possible for the Soviet to already have a sufficient AT counter in place - a ZiS or Guards Rifle squad.

Firstly, the damage dealt is entirely different, as well as the cooldown, reload times, and fire-on-the-move capability. In all regards the Flame HT is weaker.

Secondly, they both come on entirely different platforms. The AT Grenade has guaranteed penetration on a Flamer HT whereas a Faust does not on a KV-8. With the increased damage on the AT Nade, it makes it entirely possible to take down a Flamer HT with some well microed Conscripts.

In addition to that fact, the general durability is cheaper and the timing is off. In the time I have a Flamer HT out, it is entirely possible for the Soviet to already have a sufficient AT counter in place - a ZiS or Guards Rifle squad.

ZiS requires 3-4 shots to destroy a FlameHT,first shot hits,then the HT just goes around the ZiS and we have fried Soviets for lunch
And about the damage,that was just my opinion don't know the stats and maybe was bad micro but 4 Conscript squads burned in mere seconds,I was like Wtf just happened? )

ZiS requires 3-4 shots to destroy a FlameHT,first shot hits,then the HT just goes around the ZiS and we have fried Soviets for lunch
And about the damage,that was just my opinion don't know the stats and maybe was bad micro but 4 Conscript squads burned in mere seconds,I was like Wtf just happened? )

it only takes 2 hits to kill a ht. 320 hp. ZiS does 160 damage

it only takes 2 hits to kill a ht. 320 hp. ZiS does 160 damage

that didn't happen to me ...maybe missed a shot,still ZiS is the last thing I would use as an anti-tank weapon,better use T70...

right now i only remember the damage values of flame weapons i posted in some other thread.

it was 13 damage for hand-held flamers, 20 (2x10) damage for the SdKfz 251 dual flamer and 40(!) damage for the KV-8 flamer.

that number alone is op by all means. the weapon performance of the 251 flamer is already pretty bad ass in my eyes and the KV-8 doubles this performance. that's insane.

a single damage tick brings down any infantry man to 50% health and therefore have a 10% chance to brun-crit him right away. if not, the second tick will grill an infantry nevertheless.

i don't clearly remember the rate of fire of flamers but i think it is simply 1 over the board. that's just enough for the KV-8:

40 damage -> 1sec -> 40 damage ....

all infantry men only have 80 health, so there will be a kill crit with the 2nd hit. so its no joke when people are talking about "killing within a sec".

in addition to this come the general, reliable characteristics of flame weapons basicly always hitting, doing area damage and surpassing infantry armor, as well as the pretty nice and resilient platform this weapon comes on.

i havn't found any other weapon yet that is soo cleary op by its stats alone.

thank god the meta isnt encouraging players to get KV-8s which doesnt mean they definitly need an adjustment.

as a personal note:
i often see poeple arguing "yeah its op but XYZ is also op and that 'balances' this out."
I think cant even express to you how stupid and wrong by itself such an statement is. sorry but it is soo dumb.
just don't do it. No. Just don't.

regards
ace

right now i only remember the damage values of flame weapons i posted in some other thread.

it was 13 damage for hand-held flamers, 20 (2x10) damage for the SdKfz 251 dual flamer and 40(!) damage for the KV-8 flamer.

that number alone is op by all means. the weapon performance of the 251 flamer is already pretty bad ass in my eyes and the KV-8 doubles this performance. that's insane.

a single damage tick brings down any infantry man to 50% health and therefore have a 10% chance to brun-crit him right away. if not, the second tick will grill an infantry nevertheless.

i don't clearly remember the rate of fire of flamers but i think it is simply 1 over the board. that's just enough for the KV-8:

40 damage -> 1sec -> 40 damage ....

all infantry men only have 80 health, so there will be a kill crit with the 2nd hit. so its no joke when people are talking about "killing within a sec".

in addition to this come the general, reliable characteristics of flame weapons basicly always hitting, doing area damage and surpassing infantry armor, as well as the pretty nice and resilient platform this weapon comes on.

i havn't found any other weapon yet that is soo cleary op by its stats alone.

thank god the meta isnt encouraging players to get KV-8s which doesnt mean they definitly need an adjustment.

as a personal note:
i often see poeple arguing "yeah its op but XYZ is also op and that 'balances' this out."
I think cant even express to you how stupid and wrong by itself such an statement is. sorry but it is soo dumb.
just don't do it. No. Just don't.

regards
ace

your damage and rate of fire numbers are correct. flamers also have accuracy of 11, which i believe means they never miss.

Make a thread about katyushas or su76s and see if it gets 200 posts of discussion and fights. PROTIP: It wont. The KV-8 blatantly needs fixing and being in denial doesnt make coh2 a better game.

Really the only arguments I've seen against any changes to the kv-8 boil down to two very partisan points of view:

1. "soviet is shit, I hate their units, all their units suck and only the kv-8 is here to make up for me heroically fighting against german noobs who deserve all the cheese I give them and more"

Stop the fanboying crap and wise up. You act like changes to the kv-8 would be made in a vacuum with no other balances to ostheer or soviets in the same patch. If soviets were so weak then ostheer top players would never lose.

2. "kv-8s are powerful because you didnt prepare for them"

Any unit is powerful if you don't prepare for them. The problem as stated many times is three fold with the kv-8's current meta

A. They come out relatively quickly, low fuel cost, no building requirements, 4CP. Sov dont even have to tech to get a heavy tank?
B. High damage destroys AT guns, infantry squads, light vehicles
C. High survivability with heavy armor, fairly quick speed

These options combine to make it very difficult to actually prepare for the unit, especially if you arent on the watch for a kv-8 build (shocks/lots of t2 support units to kill time until kv8s hit). Even if you rush a p4 out at the same time, you will watch plenty of hits deflect off its armor as it denies you the ability to attack key areas of the map or kills enough squads to turn the tide.
If you know the enemy needs a VP and cant use infantry to kill the probable kv-8 guardian, he will bring a tank. Sit your ZIS on his avenue of approach and lol as you force him off. Use your kv-8 to massacre whats left.

Combined arms = good
One unit or ability (strafe?) dictating an enemy's gameplay = bad

Any "arguments" against nerfing the kv-8 at this point are self serving from players who want to keep this cheese going indefinitely

How are people losing whole squads on retreat to a KV-8? Any form of armour will stop the KV-8 in its tracks and force it to pull back; i'm sorry but if you don't have armour by the time a 4 CP 135 fuel unit hits the field, you've probably already lost.

For the LOLz do you only play soviets cos thats what it seems.

su85 along with a kv8 is enough to win the entire map.

I've lost KV-8 to two PGrens and a Panzer 4...to me it seems like it burns the same as the FlamerHalftrack,which surprisingly or not took out 4 of my Conscript squads in mere seconds before any of them managed to throw a grenade...
My point being both KV-8 and FlameHT burn the same,why nerf just the Soviet one which doesn't come fast as the FlameHT?
This is just my opinion so don't hate,for me they all burn the same

Mr Soviet loving joker .... if u played Germans you would know that German FHT has 1/4th the killing power of a kv8. An unvetted fht will rarely kill a single conscript squad member on its first burst not to mention you can kill it with super cheap mines, AT grens, T70,ZIS,guards etc etc etc

Just noticed something in this cast by Fatalsaint and Tommy (FTN):


Look at the CP gain rate.

Usually its not something you "see", but the cast editing makes it possible to compare the rates of the two players.

Sov seems to consistently gain CP faster than Ost does.
I've had a niggling feeling before, but never specifically paid attention to it.

Anyone else noticed this kind of thing?

This would explain the phenomenon that KV8s actually hit the field pretty much at the same time as PIVs, despite, nominally, having a higher CP number.

Just noticed something in this cast by Fatalsaint and Tommy (FTN):


Look at the CP gain rate.

Usually its not something you "see", but the cast editing makes it possible to compare the rates of the two players.

Sov seems to consistently gain CP faster than Ost does.
I've had a niggling feeling before, but never specifically paid attention to it.

Anyone else noticed this kind of thing?

This would explain the phenomenon that KV8s actually hit the field pretty much at the same time as PIVs, despite, nominally, having a higher CP number.

That's not true. A lot of factors come into this and it's very map and match dependant.

CP gain is dependent on what stuff you kill/lose. If the Soviet was ahead, it's because of greater damage done/received at whatever point you were looking.

Sov seems to consistently gain CP faster than Ost does.
I've had a niggling feeling before, but never specifically paid attention to it.

Anyone else noticed this kind of thing?

anytime i pay attention to CP it seems even. i havent directly tested it, ive looked at it when testing other things. for example i tested sector artillery not long ago. to get the CPs for that, i had a friend suicide cons at my mgs. his CPs stayed even (or atleast very close) to mine even though he wasnt getting kills or doing damage.

my guess is the CPs use the old system for unit xp. it used to be 50% for dealing damage and 50% for taking damage. they changed unit xp to 75% for damage dealt and 25% for damage recieved. i bet they didnt change the CP system though. just my guess though, i really have no idea how CPs work.

CP gain is dependent on what stuff you kill/lose. If the Soviet was ahead, it's because of greater damage done/received at whatever point you were looking.

He doesn't play enough games to realize that, maybe if he played the game instead of spent all his time on the forums and watching youtube videos he'd realize these things.

Just noticed something in this cast by Fatalsaint and Tommy (FTN):

Look at the CP gain rate.

do you even know how CP work?

I had a 2v2 game yesterday in which one of the Soviet players just spam KV-8 and even then it wasn't OP in any way. At one point I hade like 1 PzIV against 3 KV-8 and everything that was required of me was to not let them get behind which was quite easy as these tanks are quite slow.
He tried to rush my infantry but I just kept them behind my lines and retreated when necessary.