re-evaluting the panther's range and HP

Go ahead and prove me wrong then you Polish troll.

HelpingHans is proving you wrong every single day for last couple of years.

The following is based on my personal experience and preferred traits in a faction and it does not necessarily reflect my opinion on how/if the panther needs changes and might not be the best viewpoint for balance discussion:

The main reason I avoid building panther like a plague in a match that hasn't been decided already is the inconsistent results it can yield. I feel T4 is in a way a pretty micro heavy tier as well: Panzerwerfers require good positioning and prediction to get the most bang for your buck and Brummbar needs attack ground babysitting so it acts as a wipe machine. I don't want an extra micro-heavy (stop to fire every shot) unit unless it will perform much better to its counterparts in return for the invested micro.

With good micro you can definitely get instagibs with a Panzerwerfer or a Brummbar but you get nothing special in return for microing a panther well imo, just an average amount of damage dealt. I'd much rather have a pak, shrecks or in the best case scenario an Elephant guarded by packs for AT.

Brummbar is my main go-to unit in T4 since its AT power can't be ignored while doing tremendous damage to infantry and acts as a blob counter. Also the bunker buster barrage is probably the most cost effective way to delete support weapons, especially if combined with spotting scopes so you will have the element of surprise. (and its free as a bonus) The health pool and good front armor also enables you to headbutt and clear AT guns and other support weapons from time to time. Also I feel Panther can get penetrated from close range even with good front armor facing against mediums. Unlucky penetrations and misses from the panther can invalidate high risk - high reward dives and I personally prefer not to gamble with such costly units and rather dominate the infantry game with Brummbars and Werfers. (TDs are another topic for a good spot and I think instagib units like the Brummbar are questionable for the gameplay experience. I still value consistency more than imo unreliable niche units.)

For OKW I'd much rather have a P4 for anti infantry and medium armor counter which will provide good bleed to enemy infantry and a JP4 for its good RoF and 60 range against armor. Also the risks are lower and you might be ok with losing one of the OKW armor pieces if one survives while going all in on the Panther investment is often too risky for my taste. (+ I think OKW popcap is the easiest to max out of all the factions so lower popcap units are preferable)

yea they buffed the panther,stug and jp4 hp when they buffed jackson hp right ?

What no i said yeah they buffed jackson health and oh wait oh no did USF only had jackson as a late game tank and the regural shemran couldnt do a jack of crap to vet obers and volks that destroy riflemen oh no did you got scared that you actually have to micro panther

yea they buffed the panther,stug and jp4 hp when they buffed jackson hp right ?

Neither of them is intended Jackson hardcounter, so what is your point again?

I don't know how you want to make the panther more available and better at the same time.

Or you make it more available, an EZ8/T34-85 clone for Ostheer and it will be countered by all TDs even more than today.

Or you make it better than it is today and this will come at a highiest price for the unit.

I'm not against any of those solutions in fact, but I'm not sure it will be suitable for Ostheer.

HelpingHans is proving you wrong every single day for last couple of years.

So your proof is someone with an insane amount of APM that 90% of the game's player base cannot imagine to even reach?

Seems legit.

Neither of them is intended Jackson hardcounter, so what is your point again?

Then what is the counter? Pak? If you lose a Jackson to a pak, you might as well delete the game. The Jackson is faster than a p4. A pak only gets a single hit on the Jackson before it retreats, maybe 2 if you're lucky. Schrecks? Because in your world 40=60 right? On an open map, there is no place to ambush Jacksons, schrecks are useless vs TD. Bottom line, if you want the kill on a Jackson, you need AT on treads. Schreck, pak/raks are too slow and won't cut it. But by your logic all axis armor are not meant to counter Jacksons because the Jackson is a TD, yet the only way to kill the Jackson is by using armor. By that logic, the game is broken because the Stug is labelled as TD and allied armor have no problem countering it whether its outranging it or flanking it. If you spent more time playing the game then on the forums, Katitof, you'd realize that any source of AT is a good counter to the Jackson. However you need more than one source of at to finish off a Jackson as all of them have a weakness.

So your proof is someone with an insane amount of APM that 90% of the game's player base cannot imagine to even reach?

Seems legit.

What if I told you that you do not 100% all time map awareness and 500 apm to not suck with one of top three best tanks in game?

But again, you are a comp stomper.
And you complain about balance.
Of a Tiger tank.
Just how hard you must suck at this game, to the point where you have balance issues against one of THE WORST RTS AI I have ever seen? I am genuinely curious here.

Neither of them is intended Jackson hardcounter, so what is your point again?

AT LEAST FOLLOW THE CONVERSATION LOOK 10 POST ABOVE (or post n 24)

delete

What if I told you that you do not 100% all time map awareness and 500 apm to not suck with one of top three best tanks in game?

But again, you are a comp stomper.
And you complain about balance.
Of a Tiger tank.
Just how hard you must suck at this game, to the point where you have balance issues against one of THE WORST RTS AI I have ever seen? I am genuinely curious here.

Again, where is your proof of what you speak? You're arguing about my personal opinion here and when I asked for proof you presented something invalid for the majority of players, after I shot it down now you're referring to "omg you're a comp stomper noob l2p" bullshit.

Watch countless of casts and streams of actually competent people playing with the unit.

Pick literally every third replay cast featuring wehr and you'll see it.

You ask me to provide you a proof that sun is in the sky here.

The Tiger is in a good spot. When well supported it can be devestating. It’s just not like what it use to be where it can essentially be a one man army.

Watch countless of casts and streams of actually competent people playing with the unit.

Pick literally every third replay cast featuring wehr and you'll see it.

You ask me to provide you a proof that sun is in the sky here.

Good, provide us links of this claimed abundance of Panther play in 1v1.

Good, provide us links of this claimed abundance of Panther play in 1v1.

Read more then one post back and you'll see we were talking tiger.

during the pre-release beta of the vanilla coh2, panther had a range of 60m. this mean that the panther matched range with the su-85.

the range was eventually nerfed to its current value of 50m, but this leave the panther as a weird mix of tank destroyer and heavy tank.

as one of the most durable tech tree unit for the wehr and okw, the panther is typically used as the spearhead unit in an assault. This tactic runs counter to its advantage of having superior range over most tank in the game.

As such, the Panther tank should get a hp boost to 960 (from 800) in exchange for a range nerf to 45m. This would allow the panther to better perform as the brawler.


TL;DR: hp buff to 960, range nerf to 45m

Recently you made a post about how all TDs ought to be serverely nerfed.

- Panther is kinda like a TD.
As such, shouldn't it be hard-nerfed as well? (Alongside with the StuG and ATGs)
If Panther gets a succession of hard nerfs, I am confident it would be used more
and be more balance, what do you say?

PS: Panther is a very high tank with a huge hit box.

The Tiger is in a good spot. When well supported it can be devestating. It’s just not like what it use to be where it can essentially be a one man army.

I find too many players have the Rambo / MOBA syndrome.
Wanting for Axis Rambo Units that can do everything, never fail, have no weaknesses and
cannot be stopped and 1 shot everything.

- Remove AT Planes.
- Remove TD Tanks.

"I love scissors, I love how they rape paper. But removing rocks altogether would make scissors
a lot more balanced. Sigh. Scissors without a counter." (PS: 2 Maxims is spamming, 12x MG42 is not).

I find too many players have the Rambo / MOBA syndrome.
Wanting for Axis Rambo Units that can do everything, never fail, have no weaknesses and
cannot be stopped and 1 shot everything.

- Remove AT Planes.
- Remove TD Tanks.

"I love scissors, I love how they rape paper. But removing rocks altogether would make scissors
a lot more balanced. Sigh. Scissors without a counter." (PS: 2 Maxims is spamming, 12x MG42 is not).

Its likely withdraw syndrome or whatever its called. People are used to the Tiger and KT being 1 man wrecking crews which literally just required a clicks. Now if you play dumb with those units it actually punishes you.

Huh I was wrong, maybe a ROF buff then? Feels like the panther generally gets out DPSed since its reload takes forever

Also if people decide to take the generalist approach I'd say buffs to its MGs would be okay.

That is a great idea, although the panther got a RoF buff this patch and I have a feeling that some of the players in this thread didn't use their chance to try the panther after the changes. Still, it is possible that the buff was not enough and the tank needs even more RoF. As for mgs, it would be cool if high tank mg damage was not reserved only to t34s. Panther getting it is a good step forward.

I would try buffing only mgs at first, let people try it as a generalist and then buff gun if needed.

Honest to god, the ostheer panther is now IMO in a better spot than the OKW one since the RoF buff. However the issue I have with putting a lot of DPS on MGs of tanks is when you get to 30 minutes the entire map is yellow cover, and that negates 50% of the DPS.