Performance and cost efficiency of massed SU76s vs SU85

I also agree that multiple su-76 > su-85, and especially if you plan to not go to tier-4.

I haven't played with su-76 much but I have played against it a fair bit. The problem can be many things, its range, ROF, rotation rate, and what not but it depends on how we want to adjust the unit.

I'd like to advocate for a 1 style nerf to test and see if it would help in the matter that we simply reduce its ROF. Keep in mind we should also be cross comparing it to the Stug which sits around the same time to hit field and relatively similar cost to performance.

If we nerf its pen than it wont get built....ever.
If we nerf its rotation rate then its to easy to flank and trap, pathfinding becomes a mess.

The barrage being free is still nuts. You can very reliably wipe crews, even ATG, with 2+luck and at 3+ It is guaranteed.

I haven't played with su-76 much but I have played against it a fair bit. The problem can be many things, its range, ROF, rotation rate, and what not but it depends on how we want to adjust the unit.

I'd like to advocate for a 1 style nerf to test and see if it would help in the matter that we simply reduce its ROF. Keep in mind we should also be cross comparing it to the Stug which sits around the same time to hit field and relatively similar cost to performance.

If we nerf its pen than it wont get built....ever.
If we nerf its rotation rate then its to easy to flank and trap, pathfinding becomes a mess.

around same time ? when did they buff bf3 to 50 fuel ?

To make things even worse Flare are not essential since the vet 1 ability "tracking" increases sight so that one can see targets or do not suffer FOW penalty and the mini map information allows to avoid rakketen or barrages packs from out side their range.

49 limited time sight range is far from been OP. Also minimap spotting makes a difference with FoW penalty?

BTW, when did we scapped out having the SU76 barrage having a munition cost ? Was it on the first failed community patch ?

49 limited time sight range is far from been OP. Also minimap spotting makes a difference with FoW penalty?

Well with a sight 49 an Su-76 with no spotter support or flare can barrage a target with no FOW penalty and little warning before the first shell lands. It might not be OP but it is not bad either.

As far as I know minimap information does not remove the penalty of the barrage firing in FOW.

It does allow to accurately aim the barrage (that will still scatter with the penalty 25% but it will limited by scatter distance max of 10) on team-weapons without actually seeing them. Or the mini map information can be used to make sure no ATG are around so the SU-76 can then mode to closer range and barrage with vision.

Keep in mind that SU-76 barrage goes up to range 90 (up to 100 at vet 3 if not mistaken) and trucking provides info up to range 70.

BTW, when did we scapped out having the SU76 barrage having a munition cost ? Was it on the first failed community patch ?

I don't think it even lasted an iteration of testing.

I don't think it even lasted an iteration of testing.

I wonder what the reason for its removal was. The price was set to pretty low, 10 munitions if memory serves so that wouldn't punish normal use but still discourage senseless spamming. I think every ability should have a cost to it so you have to make a conscious choice to spend your resources there and have to trade them off from other uses. As of right now the barrage should be used every opportunity it is off cooldown to get the most out of it.

Are there any real explanations to it why there are these few niche abilities that are completely munitions free to use? One other that comes to mind is the British AT gun sprint which can be a real life saver sometimes. (I'd rather pay munitions for that rather than to wipe my squad for a fee with Volley Fire on RE's for example)

You might want to take a look at the replays. Do you think it is beneficial to the gameplay experience when three Su76s kill an Elephant frontally? A late game doctrinal heavy tank destroyer countered without any flanks, without Mark target and with a significantly smaller investment with a unit Elephant should be able to hardcounter. (Snowball effect from damage buff and RoF buffs from veterancy + good penetration to begin with)

A SU76 should be able to damage an Elefant yes, as much as a Puma, a stug or a jpz4 should be able to damage Allied late game tanks. And wonderfully they all do.
Now maybe the SU76 vet too fast, maybe it can be twicked but nerfing it to the way it becomes useless after a certain point of the game is going against design where we want all units to be relevant all the game long. You build your SU76/PUMA/Jpz4/STUG, you fight with it, you keep it alive, you vet it, your reward is to be able to use it vs bigger cats.

The problem you are exposing is clearly that it can be spammed. It is far easier to spam and vet three SU76 than one alone and since on teamgame, the number of potential targets is higher, they vet way faster than usual. Does it means that it is the case on 1vs1, definitively not so you can't simply nerf its stat and vet.
How to make sure the unit stay relevant on 1vs1 and cannot be spammed on teamgame, they are probably different options, the one I propose is simple: increase its popcap, it doesn't affect much the player on 1vs1 and it reduce SOV players army size and reinforcement power if he decides to spam them on teamgame.

A SU76 should be able to damage an Elefant yes, as much as a Puma, a stug or a jpz4 should be able to damage Allied late game tanks. And wonderfully they all do.
Now maybe the SU76 vet too fast, maybe it can be twicked but nerfing it to the way it becomes useless after a certain point of the game is going against design where we want all units to be relevant all the game long. You build your SU76/PUMA/Jpz4/STUG, you fight with it, you keep it alive, you vet it, your reward is to be able to use it vs bigger cats.

The problem you are exposing is clearly that it can be spammed. It is far easier to spam and vet three SU76 than one alone and since on teamgame, the number of potential targets is higher, they vet way faster than usual. Does it means that it is the case on 1vs1, definitively not so you can't simply nerf its stat and vet.
How to make sure the unit stay relevant on 1vs1 and cannot be spammed on teamgame, they are probably different options, the one I propose is simple: increase its popcap, it doesn't affect much the player on 1vs1 and it reduce SOV players army size and reinforcement power if he decides to spam them on teamgame.

I have yet to see a few pumas park themselves in front of an ISU or an IS2 and slug it out and win without losses. On the other hand I definitely headbutted an Elephant with SU76s yesterday and it died in under 30 seconds by my estimate. Pumas will do fine lategame when preserved but they need to flank their opponents to get reliable penetrations and most lategame tanks will return fire because of the lower range of 50 instead of the SU76s 60 range. The range difference is a big factor here. You can kite with 60 range units, with 50 range not so much. That has a big effect on the life expectancy of a unit if it can stay out of harms way most of the time while still being able to do decent damage.

Now my original point was not about the interaction with tank destroyers of other factions but between SU76 and SU85 which you seemed to miss/ignore. The thing is Stugs and JP4s are the axis lategame non-doctrinal TDs so they need to be able to handle heavy armor as well as medium armor. SU76 on the other hand is not the Soviet lategame tank destroyer, that honor goes to SU85.

So do you think it is intended design or beneficial to the gameplay that the T3 SU76 yields better/similar results compared to its counterpart while being cheaper, in a lower tech tier, more mobile, has better utility, better RoF and anti infantry capabilities? This is a matter between two soviet units and their performance and does not necessarily require comparisons between other factions' TDs.

Comparing Puma and Su-76 is misleading. Puma vs medium and above is only effective close range or on rear armor.

The penetration of SU-76 at far range is actually than the penetration Puma has at close range.

I have yet to see a few pumas park themselves in front of an ISU or an IS2 and slug it out and win without losses. On the other hand I definitely headbutted an Elephant with SU76s yesterday and it died in under 30 seconds by my estimate. Pumas will do fine lategame when preserved but they need to flank their opponents to get reliable penetrations and most lategame tanks will return fire because of the lower range of 50 instead of the SU76s 60 range. The range difference is a big factor here. You can kite with 60 range units, with 50 range not so much. That has a big effect on the life expectancy of a unit if it can stay out of harms way most of the time while still being able to do decent damage.

Now my original point was not about the interaction with tank destroyers of other factions but between SU76 and SU85 which you seemed to miss/ignore. The thing is Stugs and JP4s are the axis lategame non-doctrinal TDs so they need to be able to handle heavy armor as well as medium armor. SU76 on the other hand is not the Soviet lategame tank destroyer, that honor goes to SU85.

So do you think it is intended design or beneficial to the gameplay that the T3 SU76 yields better/similar results compared to its counterpart while being cheaper, in a lower tech tier, more mobile, has better utility, better RoF and anti infantry capabilities? This is a matter between two soviet units and their performance and does not necessarily require comparisons between other factions' TDs.

What about panthers and elef/jtg? Stugs and jpz4 aren't more dedicated to counter late game tanks that the SU76. I'm not the one here comparing TDs, you are. I'm saying all medium TDs should be able to perform their role late game if preserved.

You build your SU76/PUMA/Jpz4/STUG, you fight with it, you keep it alive, you vet it, your reward is to be able to use it vs bigger cats.

I assume this listing is a comparison of different units put into a similar category and not just a random bunch of units from different factions.

What about panthers and elef/jtg? Stugs and jpz4 aren't more dedicated to counter late game tanks that the SU76. I'm not the one here comparing TDs, you are. I'm saying all medium TDs should be able to perform their role late game if preserved.

I specifically said non-doctrinal TDs. Last time Elephant was non-doctrinal was around open beta in 2013. Panther is not a normal tank destroyer because of its decent "good spot trademark" anti-infantry firepower. Panther is not a better version of a stug and they perform different roles. If that were the case it would always be a good idea to replace every lost stug with a panther to perform the same role but better.

This part is once again pretty trivial since the original point is the comparison between SU76 and SU85 which is a thing that exists as a non-doctrinal unit in soviet Tier 4 structure. If you ignore that fact this discussion is of questionable use as the SU85 and its efficiency compared to SU76 is not taken to account. This has been repeated several times by now.

(And personally I wouldn't call an SU76 to a medium TD, otherwise SU85 would be a Heavy TD which its certainly not)

The current SU76 is definitely OP and can't stay as it is, but the nerfing process of this unit must be done very carefully. No "numerous nerfs without any compensate" like we saw with the Panther last patch for example.

The reason is simple: SU76 needs to stay a super hardcounter against axis medium tanks (p4, ostwind, stug) or otherwise you can't skip t2 as soviet anymore cuz t4 comes too late (additionally, you can't just rely on ZiS guns as your whole midgame AT if the map is too big). And that would lower the soviet utility drastically and cause linear play with less gaming experience.

Add a cost to the barrage (10 or 15 mun) or remove it completely and lower the far penetration for example, and let's see if any additional adjustments will be needed after.

The current SU76 is definitely OP and can't stay as it is, but the nerfing process of this unit must be done very carefully. No "numerous nerfs without any compensate" like we saw with the Panther last patch for example.

The reason is simple: SU76 needs to stay a super hardcounter against axis medium tanks (p4, ostwind, stug) or otherwise you can't skip t2 as soviet anymore cuz t4 comes too late (additionally, you can't just rely on ZiS guns as your whole midgame AT if the map is too big). And that would lower the soviet utility drastically and cause linear play with less gaming experience.

Add a cost to the barrage (10 or 15 mun) or remove it completely and lower the far penetration for example, and let's see if any additional adjustments will be needed after.

Uhh, sov t2 is only 160 mp and 20 fuel, it's not expensive to get a atg to support your mediums (as every other faction has to do).

So su-76 doesnt need to hardcounter p4 (apart from the above, it is super bad design to have such a cheap unit nullify axis midgame).

I assume this listing is a comparison of different units put into a similar category and not just a random bunch of units from different factions.




I specifically said non-doctrinal TDs. Last time Elephant was non-doctrinal was around open beta in 2013. Panther is not a normal tank destroyer because of its decent "good spot trademark" anti-infantry firepower. Panther is not a better version of a stug and they perform different roles. If that were the case it would always be a good idea to replace every lost stug with a panther to perform the same role but better.

This part is once again pretty trivial since the original point is the comparison between SU76 and SU85 which is a thing that exists as a non-doctrinal unit in soviet Tier 4 structure. If you ignore that fact this discussion is of questionable use as the SU85 and its efficiency compared to SU76 is not taken to account. This has been repeated several times by now.

(And personally I wouldn't call an SU76 to a medium TD, otherwise SU85 would be a Heavy TD which its certainly not)

One SU76 vs one SU85 or a bunch of SU76 vs one SU85? Because if you had to fight any tank with one or the other, would you blindly select the SU76?
I didn't disagree with you on the fondemental of this Topic, there is an issue with the SU76 and I give my thought on what could be a good solution to solve it.

On the list I provided, maybe the PUMA isn't relevant I was including all medium stock tank destroyers. Other than that, they all share the same issue, they overperform when vetted and only the jpz4 can't be spamed.

At the end, if you decide to nerf the SU76, you'll end why two possibilities > or you use your hammer and nobody will use the unit anymore, or you don't and players will be still spamming them. And I just want to remind you that maybe spaming a certain type of unit isn't fun to play but that's a strategy like any others, you can't deny people to do it, just increase its price so it increases its downside and let people counter it more easily.

So su-76 doesnt need to hardcounter p4 (apart from the above, it is super bad design to have such a cheap unit nullify axis midgame).

Well, we all know how popular the unit was when it couldn't stand up to weakest med armor.
It was a meme unit before.

Well, we all know how popular the unit was when it couldn't stand up to weakest med armor.
It was a meme unit before.

Back in the day there were plenty of meme units in T4s on both sides, like the brummbar and katy. (Although I'm pretty sure relic increased the meme value of katy by making it almost instagib OKW HQs for a while)

The British AEC was never built either so the splash damage was boosted to ridiculous levels. After the re-nerfs you still see it in most games so a nerf doesn't mean the unit will never be seen again.

(RIP CalliOpieOP)

Back in the day most non-doctrine soviet armor had trouble with axis tanks (SU76, SU85, T34/76) and that is part of the reason the call in meta was dominant in every mode.

That does not change the seemingly common consensus that the unit is in a peculiar spot right now.

Well with a sight 49 an Su-76 with no spotter support or flare can barrage a target with no FOW penalty and little warning before the first shell lands. It might not be OP but it is not bad either.

As far as I know minimap information does not remove the penalty of the barrage firing in FOW.

It does allow to accurately aim the barrage (that will still scatter with the penalty 25% but it will limited by scatter distance max of 10) on team-weapons without actually seeing them. Or the mini map information can be used to make sure no ATG are around so the SU-76 can then mode to closer range and barrage with vision.

Keep in mind that SU-76 barrage goes up to range 90 (up to 100 at vet 3 if not mistaken) and trucking provides info up to range 70.

wait the FOW penality is only 25 % for all units ?