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pzgren should be wehr's dedicated tank hunters

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thedarkarmadillo
25 Mar 2018, 21:53 PM
#81
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jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2018, 17:59 PMStug life
for how much more fuel does the t 34 85 does get more hp, pen and aoe ?

Well since its cost now pumps it up to okw p4 prices its contending with an 53 point armour increase to contend with its 40 point pen increase, the difference is made up by eating an extra shell.

Gotta keep in mind while the 85 is 10 fuel +/- a p4 its 40 fuel more than a 76, nearly half again the fuel and has to reflect that in performance. Even then i think they did a good job, at max range vs the p4 it has a faur chance to win, up close obviously that falters but that opens up more risk for the 85 as well.
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elchino7
25 Mar 2018, 23:04 PM
#82
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T34-85s only problem comes from having the same MG profile as the 76s.
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And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
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thedarkarmadillo
26 Mar 2018, 00:01 AM
#83
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jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2018, 23:04 PMelchino7
T34-85s only problem comes from having the same MG profile as the 76s.


Tbh i think thats a good thing, the mg thing should be standard so the AOE of the cannons could be slightly reduced.
Then tanks are a reliable threat instead of an RNG machine. Nothing sucks more than flanking an AT gun and missing shots for the next minute and netting nothing.
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IncendiaryRounds:)
26 Mar 2018, 00:07 AM
#84
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jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2018, 20:31 PMsinthe


It seems as if handheld AT is enough for allied armies. Guards, penals, rifles and british IS all have the capability to take out most armour on their own. It's for some reason only ok to hamstring handheld AT in the axis factions.


Totally agree. I believe the problem is that zook riflemen and ptrs penals have snares so that single unit can put a tank out of commission whereas schreck squads don't have snares. It's highly hypocritical that the accuracy of the schrecks was nerfed since they have a lower RoF and you can't spam them on any unit like zooks/piats. When schrecks do hit, they are obviously better than zooks. Axis is prevented from spamming schrecks as the schreck squads are expensive 4man squads where US/UKF can spam them on 200/210 mp units and double upgrade them with both of those units having the potential of getting 5man. Pgren pop cap is 9 while Rear ech is 5. Pgren cost nearly twice rear ech. Of course the double schreck should be threatening. For 10 pop cap USF can have 4 zooks spread across potentially 10 men while 9 cap only gets you 2 schrecks spread across 4 men. Rear ech and sappers can somehow still upgrade sweepers after getting double upgrades. While pio/engis can't even get a single upgrade after getting sweeper.
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sinthe
26 Mar 2018, 00:50 AM
#85
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2018, 00:07 AMIncendiaryRounds:)


snip


Exactly what I was saying when OKW lost it's handheld AT on stock troops. Why is it too much for OKW to have handheld AT while all allied stock troops have a hand held option and some of which have their own snares. OKW just had handheld AT and no snares. The loss of schrecks literally halved the number of AT sources OKW could field.
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sinthe
26 Mar 2018, 00:53 AM
#86
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jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2018, 23:04 PMelchino7
T34-85s only problem comes from having the same MG profile as the 76s.


I think the t34/76 should have the armour of the t34/85 and the difference between the 2 is the up'd gun and a minor armour increase (10).
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Katitof
26 Mar 2018, 05:31 AM
#87
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jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2018, 20:31 PMsinthe


It seems as if handheld AT is enough for allied armies. Guards, penals, rifles and british IS all have the capability to take out most armour on their own. It's for some reason only ok to hamstring handheld AT in the axis factions.

Show me a single 1v1 where you can rely on PTRS or PIATs only for AT.
I can see zooks being able to and most certainly not against big cats.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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thedarkarmadillo
26 Mar 2018, 06:35 AM
#88
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2018, 05:31 AMKatitof

Show me a single 1v1 where you can rely on PTRS on PIATs only for AT.
I can see zooks being able to and most certainly not against big cats.


Im not even sure the ptrs alone would work against an easy bot as those nasty chip damagers are countered by simply moving and the bot is smart eniugh to do that, even if some players are not
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Stug life
26 Mar 2018, 15:02 PM
#89
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2018, 05:31 AMKatitof

Show me a single 1v1 where you can rely on PTRS or PIATs only for AT.
I can see zooks being able to and most certainly not against big cats.
infact nobody said to make PG able to counter all armor
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elchino7
26 Mar 2018, 19:08 PM
#90
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2018, 00:53 AMsinthe


I think the t34/76 should have the armour of the t34/85 and the difference between the 2 is the up'd gun and a minor armour increase (10).


jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2018, 00:01 AMthedarkarmadillo


Tbh i think thats a good thing, the mg thing should be standard so the AOE of the cannons could be slightly reduced.
Then tanks are a reliable threat instead of an RNG machine. Nothing sucks more than flanking an AT gun and missing shots for the next minute and netting nothing.


I didn't explained myself enough.

T3485 was on a fine spot, specially after guard commanders fell out of popularity/effectiveness compare to the past. Performance was fine when they moved it to T4.
When they necessarily buffed the MGs on the T34-76s, it did have a echo effect on buffing the 85s as well. I said this like 2 years ago, it was mostly an oversight.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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sinthe
27 Mar 2018, 01:24 AM
#91
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2018, 05:31 AMKatitof

Show me a single 1v1 where you can rely on PTRS or PIATs only for AT.
I can see zooks being able to and most certainly not against big cats.


1v1 maybe not, but how often do you see only one squad fielded with PTRS or PIATS.

Zooks only need a to be 90 degrees to the side of a tank to have a 50% chance at hitting rear armour and when there is 4 zooks they can most definitely be enough of a threat to push a panther back (it's not like it can kill them).


The point I'm making is that at any point of time on the field the allies will have more sources of AT than axis. Penal satchel is a one click solution to pretty much any problem they may have (tanks, weapons teams, garrisoned units, etc.).
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Firesparks
27 Mar 2018, 03:44 AM
#92
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2018, 05:31 AMKatitof

Show me a single 1v1 where you can rely on PTRS or PIATs only for AT.
I can see zooks being able to and most certainly not against big cats.


the panzergrenadier's primary role would be to hold the field against light tanks while the tanks get on the field. They don't need to be good enough to tackle medium tank by themselves (and shouldn't).

The entire reason why Bazooka and PIAT on line infantry was fine is precisely because they are just okay enough. The allies definitely still need tank destroyer late game.

the volks and schreck wasn't fine because they were freakish powerful. Making them acceptable would have meant hitting them with a nerf hammer, to the point where the stg44 would have been necessary as an alternative.

the panzergrenadier's current design is severely outdated dating back to before even the USF release. Given the change in meta and lesson along the way the panzergrenadier should be updated.

and the allies is already facing single schreck currently, from the sturmpio. volks and schreck just seems to synergize in some freakish way.


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Storm Elite
27 Mar 2018, 06:48 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2018, 03:44 AMFiresparks

the panzergrenadier's primary role would be to hold the field against light tanks while the tanks get on the field.

This would already be the case if Ostheer's infantry ability and upgrade costs weren't absolutely INSANE.

Ostheer is utterly starved for munitions at all times, literally having to choose between using grenades and upgrading weapons, while Allies don't need to do any such thing.

As it stands, it's impossible to upgrade Grenadiers with weapons (which are mandatory to have any chance against the infinite MGs USF infantry have, the absurdly huge, meaty Soviet squads, or the overpowered baseline damage of UKF squads) and also bring out Panzergrenadiers with Panzerschrecks on time -- oh, and you can forget about mining anything, ever.
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Katitof
27 Mar 2018, 12:33 PM
#94
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2018, 06:48 AMStorm Elite

This would already be the case if Ostheer's infantry ability and upgrade costs weren't absolutely INSANE.

Insane compared to what? Soviets? Because that is the only faction in game that does not have 20 non doctrinal ways to burn muni through upgrades.

Ostheer is utterly starved for munitions at all times, literally having to choose between using grenades and upgrading weapons, while Allies don't need to do any such thing.

So is OKW with more expensive Upgrades, USF and UKF with less effective Upgrades, but ability to get 2 per squad for twice the cost.
I will blow your mind with it, but ost does not have it any worse then other factions and only soviets have it better because they lack non doctrinal Upgrades and muni dumps.

As it stands, it's impossible to upgrade Grenadiers with weapons (which are mandatory to have any chance against the infinite MGs USF infantry have, the absurdly huge, meaty Soviet squads, or the overpowered baseline damage of UKF squads) and also bring out Panzergrenadiers with Panzerschrecks on time -- oh, and you can forget about mining anything, ever.


Ost can not afford anything when they Need to pay 60 mun per squad, but USF magically affords to pay 120 mun per squad + use abilities + offmaps. Mmmmkay.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Esxile
27 Mar 2018, 15:18 PM
#95
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2018, 12:33 PMKatitof



Ost can not afford anything when they Need to pay 60 mun per squad, but USF magically affords to pay 120 mun per squad + use abilities + offmaps. Mmmmkay.


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Sussenka
27 Mar 2018, 15:53 PM
#96
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Wouldn't it be a good idea to make pgrens able to put away their shrecks the same way sturmpios do with sweepers? Costing 340mp and 120muni I think it'd be nice to not make your squad useless vs infantry.
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Katitof
27 Mar 2018, 15:54 PM
#97
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2018, 15:53 PMSussenka
Wouldn't it be a good idea to make pgrens able to put away their shrecks the same way sturmpios do with sweepers? Costing 340mp and 120muni I think it'd be nice to not make your squad useless vs infantry.

Its really hard to think of any more overpowered thing in the game.

And if you're making your squad able to tackle tanks with best handheld at weapon in game, why exactly its unfair to make it useless vs infantry?
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Stug life
27 Mar 2018, 16:12 PM
#98
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2018, 15:54 PMKatitof

Its really hard to think of any more overpowered thing in the game.

And if you're making your squad able to tackle tanks with best handheld at weapon in game, why exactly its unfair to make it useless vs infantry?
yea the point is not to make them usefull with infantry but make them better vs tank, 1 more man could help as it means less squad wipes, some other ablity like better reload near tanks and a repair ability at vet 1 (instead of medkits) would give the unit more utility without being blobed for efficency
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elchino7
27 Mar 2018, 22:34 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2018, 15:54 PMKatitof

Its really hard to think of any more overpowered thing in the game.

And if you're making your squad able to tackle tanks with best handheld at weapon in game, why exactly its unfair to make it useless vs infantry?


What if it was locked down behind a long cd (60-120s) and only be able to trigger while in base sector? Or bolstering been free but they require a half investment to reacquire them?

If we were at 2013 or beginning of 2014, i would had completely agree. While we do not need to powercreep everything, i don't see with bad eyes giving more alternatives rather than just buffing a unit.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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thedarkarmadillo
28 Mar 2018, 00:31 AM
#100
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im in favor of buffing their vet 1 personally. Something more suited to mechanized infantry. Something that suits the Wehrs intended adoption from static team weapons on the defensive to more aggressive light vehicle and infantry pokes. Increased rof would be nice, or accuracy. Slightly smaller target size, increased LOS.
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