pzgren should be wehr's dedicated tank hunters

the panzer grenadier struggle to hold a relevant role.

They have great short to mid range dps but in effect they are not useful. It is far more practical to use gren with g43 if the map call for mid-short range combat.

On most map, mid-long range combat dominate the meta. The more useful short range combatant have means to get close without getting shot up. Commandos have cloak while the shock troops have smoke and armor. (the lmg upgrade are far more prevalent on Ober and paratrooper)

Their other role, tank-hunter, have too much huddle to be practical. 340 mp 120 mu and 9 pop is a pretty steep cost in the early part of the match. This put the wehr in a rough spot because they also have the weakest light vehicle-line unless they went for puma. the 222 and the halftrack is thoroughly outclassed against any light tank used by the three allies faction. The pak40 is easily flanked and killed.

Then, the solution to the impracticality of the panzergrenadier and the wehr's early game problem is to make pzgrenadier more practical as the faction's tank hunter:

lower pzgren mp44 dps (something similar to 2.0- 10.0)
lower pzgren cost to 300 mp 8 pop
wehr schreck get a make over. damage increased to 160, but the upgrade only grant one schreck and cost 75 munition.

This allow the panzergrenadier to retain more of their original firepower after the tank hunter upgrade, and the overall unit+upgrade are cheaper but still potent.

This would make the panzergrenadier more similar to the penal, but the wehr by design lack the light vehicle that allow the soviet to snowball from penal to the t-70.

I would like 1 of what ever you are smoking please

Soooooo, you want anti tank gun with no setup, no arc of fire, retreat and only lower range?

Something tells me it is not a good idea.

I use mainly PZRgrenadiers for their AI power so this is a no go for me.

This could also lead to potential blobbing because quote:

''This allow the panzergrenadier to retain more of their original firepower after the tank hunter upgrade, and the overall unit+upgrade are cheaper but still potent.''

Having 2- 3 squads for 900 mp with STG's, bundle grenades and 3 panzershrecks... nope. Not for me.

I would rather remove PTRS from Penal, have PG spawn with 2 STG44 + 2 K98 lower cost to 300 and allow 1+1 shreck upgrade or 2 STG44

I agree with your analysis part, Pgrens are rarely used. As you say, quite often they are not worth it. Which is sad, because they could be fun.

I think pgrens are one of the best ballanced units in the game. Kind of a gold standard of firepower and upgrade design. I also use them often if my build doesnt go into the most common path of gren spam. They are effective vs infantry if you can micro them so that they are never shot at out of cover. They are also good vs tanks, with their primary role being protecting the flanks of paks and stugs. All flanks at once thanks to hand held weapons.

In 1v1, many matches are won by flanking or quickly rushing AT guns with lights or mediums. If often happens that faust is not enough as a fast tank can avoid lots of pak fire even with a damaged engine, if it is located close enough to the gun. That is when pgrens can do their job well in defence.

In the offence they can support your grens with valuable AT support that can retreat. Which is much better than risking losing an overextended pak.

All in all I think they are a useful unit in AT department, while in AI department they are mostly map dependant and micro intensive, which couses gren spam to outshine them. Still, I think the problem here doesn't lie in the pgren unit stats but possibly in weapons like g43.

Btw. Ostheer doesn't have a light tank but they have a cheap and pretty early ostwind that does everything any light tank does better and is only slightly more expensive than for example a t-70. In recent patch it got buffed both when it comes to cost and when it comes to penetration which made it really good.

What I think needs to be changed most urgently about pgrens are the pop cap reduced to 8. Right now the performance to pop cap ratio for pgrens is laughable. Obers, falls, are all better. Upgraded rifle/ 5man sections are only 7 pop cap and are more than a match for pgrens at most ranges.

Btw. Ostheer doesn't have a light tank but they have a cheap and pretty early ostwind that does everything any light tank does better and is only slightly more expensive than for example a t-70. In recent patch it got buffed both when it comes to cost and when it comes to penetration which made it really good.

the ostwind doesn't arrive early enough to actually counter stuff like the stuart or t70. It's also not really a light tank, it have 640 hp. It's not more of a light tank than the centaur is.

Soooooo, you want anti tank gun with no setup, no arc of fire, retreat and only lower range?

Something tells me it is not a good idea.

currently it's 2 x 120 damage. 1 x 160 damage is less .

I use mainly PZRgrenadiers for their AI power so this is a no go for me.

This could also lead to potential blobbing because quote:

''This allow the panzergrenadier to retain more of their original firepower after the tank hunter upgrade, and the overall unit+upgrade are cheaper but still potent.''

Having 2- 3 squads for 900 mp with STG's, bundle grenades and 3 panzershrecks... nope. Not for me.

Not like there isn't already blobbing?

the ostwind doesn't arrive early enough to actually counter stuff like the stuart or t70. It's also not really a light tank, it have 640 hp. It's not more of a light tank than the centaur is.



currently it's 2 x 120 damage. 1 x 160 damage is less .

Ostwind is obviously a medium. But in some ways it is similar to light tanks - it is very fast, cheap and performs mostly AI duties while soft countering light tanks. It is also important to note that it is the first medium to come on the field and with good early game ostheer can rush to get it very early. It is kind of a bridge between light tank and medium tank phase of the game.

Also, ostwind actually counters t-70, but in more of a coh1 sense, when counters always come with further tech, leaving quite a big window of opportunity for every unit to shine in.

Also, ostwind actually counters t-70, but in more of a coh1 sense, when counters always come with further tech, leaving quite a big window of opportunity for every unit to shine in.

the wehr's "meta" of not having early at vehicle leave them at a serious disadvantage and it doesn't work. (222 barely count)

the historically most popular doctrine for the wehr in 1v1 have been either the Puma or the stug E, both for the same reason of wehr needing an early and decent AT vehicle against the t-70/stuart.

(the stugE also have the added advantage of the tiger, but the stug E put the doctrine above the other tiger doctrine).

The 222 is simply not up to the task.

This could also lead to potential blobbing because quote:

''This allow the panzergrenadier to retain more of their original firepower after the tank hunter upgrade, and the overall unit+upgrade are cheaper but still potent.''

Having 2- 3 squads for 900 mp with STG's, bundle grenades and 3 panzershrecks... nope. Not for me.

ultimately the most important detail is down scaling the panzergrenadier, so it is less of a self-mutilation when you're buying the schreck.

maybe even just 1 single schreck for 75-60 mu would work

What about bolster but with limitations.
Like only been able to change it near your base or with a heavy cd which can't be activated during combat or after a long time after it?

Ive always felt that pgrens die so easily, you can never really close the distance like you can with sturmpioneers.

Would be cool if they could be like panzer elite pgrens from coh1. Like they start out with all k98's and you can uppgrade with stg44,g43 or schrecks

Not like there isn't already blobbing?

Would you like to put oil on the fire?

Ive always felt that pgrens die so easily, you can never really close the distance like you can with sturmpioneers.

Would be cool if they could be like panzer elite pgrens from coh1. Like they start out with all k98's and you can uppgrade with stg44,g43 or schrecks

Ostheer already has such a unit. It is called stormtrooper. But honestly, I prefer current pgrens to be non-doc and sormtroopers to be doctrinal as it is.

Ive always felt that pgrens die so easily, you can never really close the distance like you can with sturmpioneers.

Would be cool if they could be like panzer elite pgrens from coh1. Like they start out with all k98's and you can uppgrade with stg44,g43 or schrecks

Pgrens are better than sturms. Better range and RA stats. So pgrens have an easier time closing in.

I think pgrens should get some sort of repairing ability as they are PANZERgrenadiers after all and so I like the idea of making them a bit like coh1 panzer elite infantry

Pgrens are better than sturms. Better range and RA stats. So pgrens have an easier time closing in.

I think pgrens should get some sort of repairing ability as they are PANZERgrenadiers after all and so I like the idea of making them a bit like coh1 panzer elite infantry

I want pgrens to get a small RA amd accuracy buff while near armour of any sort. They are PANZER grenadiers after all. Would also reinforce osts conbined arms design and allow greater transition from static team weapons to mobile armoured support.

Would you like to put oil on the fire?

It's better than an irrelevant unit compared to it's allied counterparts.

Penals : 6 men w SVT40 rifles. Bundled grenade. Lose half AI in side AT role.
PzGren : 4 men w STG44 rifles. Bundled grenade. Lose half AI in side AT role.

2x Pzshreks (better than bazookas)(more cost efficient muni wise than 'zooks)
(No fuel/manpower side teching, don't need weapon racks) has self-healing.
3x AT Rifles (weaker than bazookas)(No burst/shock value. Only useful vs
light vehicles). Low pen.