It seems you want to equalize specific units to balance things, but not take into account that they need to fight units of different strength. This wouldn't really work for a few reasons.
(interesting points below, but I didn't read the entire post first, so I put that stuff in spoilers)
Every faction being a mirror of each other isn't what people want. The problem is that certain units are over-performing in certain roles across entire sides of the game. Allied mainline infantry IS in general better than axis mainline infantry in pretty much every role except long-range static combat, which isn't very common in CoH2.
It's similar to how Axis tanks were better than allied tanks at pretty much everything until the DBP. That's fixed now, and the game is much better for it (no more mass-panther spam), but the same problem still exists with infantry, and it needs to be addressed. Sure, it might not as bad as the tank situation was, but it's still a significant problem that's facing the game; and one that could easily be changed by just limiting squads to 1 purchasable weapon upgrade. That's all people are asking for.
Why should 708 manpower, 70 fuel, 170 munition squads be weaker than 240 manp, 60 muni squads?
That isn't an accurate comparison. In a vacuum, double BAR'd rifles cost 280mp (squad) + 150mp/15f (weapon racks) + 120muni (double bars), totaling 430mp/15f/120muni, whereas LMG grens cost 240mp (squad) + 100mp/40f (T1 tech) + 60muni totaling 340mp/40f/60muni. The thing is, though, even with an extra 60muni, you still can't double-upgrade grens, so the muni argument is kind of moot since spending extra isn't a possibility for one side.
So really it's "Why should a 430mp/15f squad be weaker than a 340mp/40f squad?".
The answer is, they should be about the same; 90mp for 35f is a pretty good trade.
It seems you want to equalize specific units to balance things, but not take into account that they need to fight units of different strength. This wouldn't really work for a few reasons.
(interesting points below, but I didn't read the entire post first, so I put that stuff in spoilers)
Every faction being a mirror of each other isn't what people want. The problem is that certain units are over-performing in certain roles across entire sides of the game. Allied mainline infantry IS in general better than axis mainline infantry in pretty much every role except long-range static combat, which isn't very common in CoH2.
It's similar to how Axis tanks were better than allied tanks at pretty much everything until the DBP. That's fixed now, and the game is much better for it (no more mass-panther spam), but the same problem still exists with infantry, and it needs to be addressed. Sure, it might not as bad as the tank situation was, but it's still a significant problem that's facing the game; and one that could easily be changed by just limiting squads to 1 purchasable weapon upgrade. That's all people are asking for.
That isn't an accurate comparison. In a vacuum, double BAR'd rifles cost 280mp (squad) + 150mp/15f (weapon racks) + 120muni (double bars), totaling 430mp/15f/120muni, whereas LMG grens cost 240mp (squad) + 100mp/40f (T1 tech) + 60muni totaling 340mp/40f/60muni. The thing is, though, even with an extra 60muni, you still can't double-upgrade grens, so the muni argument is kind of moot since spending extra isn't a possibility for one side.
So really it's "Why should a 430mp/15f squad be weaker than a 340mp/40f squad?".
The answer is, they should be about the same; 90mp for 35f is a pretty good trade.
That is not accurate either.
The 100mp and 40 fuel unlock more then just the lmg42. It gives you the rifle grenade as well. It also give a tech structure wich in turn give acces to better units. The unlocks for bars zooks and grenades dont.
So of that 40 fuel only 15 is for grens directly. And that grants you the lmgs and rifle grenades.
Rifles are the only nondoc capable inf for usf. Ost gets 2 okw gets 3 and both also have good non doc inf. Rifles are more expensive then both grens and volks. Thus rifles should be a bit better overall when max upgraded.
That isn't an accurate comparison. In a vacuum, double BAR'd rifles cost 280mp (squad) + 150mp/15f (weapon racks) + 120muni (double bars), totaling 430mp/15f/120muni, whereas LMG grens cost 240mp (squad) + 100mp/40f (T1 tech) + 60muni totaling 340mp/40f/60muni. The thing is, though, even with an extra 60muni, you still can't double-upgrade grens, so the muni argument is kind of moot since spending extra isn't a possibility for one side.
So really it's "Why should a 430mp/15f squad be weaker than a 340mp/40f squad?".
The answer is, they should be about the same; 90mp for 35f is a pretty good trade.
You also have to to add the cost of the T1 building to produce the grenadiers.
The 100mp and 40 fuel unlock more then just the lmg42. It gives you the rifle grenade as well. It also give a tech structure wich in turn give acces to better units. The unlocks for bars zooks and grenades dont.
So of that 40 fuel only 15 is for grens directly. And that grants you the lmgs and rifle grenades.
Rifles are the only nondoc capable inf for usf. Ost gets 2 okw gets 3 and both also have good non doc inf. Rifles are more expensive then both grens and volks. Thus rifles should be a bit better overall when max upgraded.
That is incorrect one does not have the option to pay just 15 FU for the LMG, you have to invest the total even if one never plans to use it. And that is part of the reason why g43 are so popular.
The difference here is that USF and UKF can chose if and when they want to invest in something while especially Ostheer have one of the most rigid non rewarding tech structure.
Overall I would say Ostheer are in disadvantage when it comes to teching.
The 100mp and 40 fuel unlock more then just the lmg42. It gives you the rifle grenade as well. It also give a tech structure wich in turn give acces to better units. The unlocks for bars zooks and grenades dont.
So of that 40 fuel only 15 is for grens directly. And that grants you the lmgs and rifle grenades.
Rifles are the only nondoc capable inf for usf. Ost gets 2 okw gets 3 and both also have good non doc inf. Rifles are more expensive then both grens and volks. Thus rifles should be a bit better overall when max upgraded.
I'm pritty sure that USF tech costs including weapon racks is about equal to OSTs. This means while unlocking weapons is cheaper than tech with OST, the weapon rack cost is made up by cheaper tier costs later on.
Also if 30 mp costs justify such a strong unit vs volk and grens why are panzer grens (and even obers) not have a proportionate advantage over rifles?
You also have to to add the cost of the T1 building to produce the grenadiers.
That is incorrect one does not have the option to pay just 15 FU for the LMG, you have to invest the total even if one never plans to use it. And that is part of the reason why g43 are so popular.
The difference here is that USF and UKF can chose if and when they want to invest in something while especially Ostheer have one of the most rigid non rewarding tech structure.
Overall I would Ostheer are in disadvantage when it comes to teching.
You still have to take into account what the tech gives you. Allies just get specific abilities or weapons for specific units.
You say you will need to tech for it regardless if you use all it unlocks. The fact remains that ost and okw tech unlock more then allied regular tech. Like tech structures new ablilities upgrades and units.
You cannot simply add the total price and say, ha grens and volks are more expensive fuel wise while half of the tech costs grant other things then upgrades and abilities. Unlike allied side tech.
I'm pritty sure that USF tech costs including weapon racks is about equal to OSTs. This means while unlocking weapons is cheaper than tech with OST, the weapon rack cost is made up by cheaper tier costs later on.
Also if 30 mp costs justify such a strong unit vs volk and grens why are panzer grens (and even obers) not have a proportionate advantage over rifles?
Pg grens will melt unupgraded rifles esp if they get the jump on them. Same with obers.
Now upgraded rifles cost 90 muni per squad the mp and fuel tech cost to be added divided by the number of rifles squads. Wich mostly is 3. Wich would be 100mp and 12 fuel (These might be out of date i need to fact check that)
And again how many capable infantry does usf have non doc? And how many do okw and ost have non doc? If rifles cant carry the inf fight what can for usf?
You still have to take into account what the tech gives you. Allies just get specific abilities or weapons for specific units.
You say you will need to tech for it regardless if you use all it unlocks. The fact remains that ost and okw tech unlock more then allied regular tech. Like tech structures new ablilities upgrades and units.
You cannot simply add the total price and say, ha grens and volks are more expensive fuel wise while half of the tech costs grant other things then upgrades and abilities. Unlike allied side tech.
That is inaccurate allies get many things with tech:
USF tech
T1 LT (Squad with Thompson/bar cost 300)
T2 CT(Squad with Thompson that can upgrade bazooka, production speed buff cost 320)
T3 Major (Squad with Recon/FRTP/off map arty cost 160)
UKF tech
T1 (unlocks medic kit/Pyrotechnics 1 base gun)
T2 (unlocks 2 base gun)
Anvil/hammer (air-bust shells/Advanced warning/heavy engineers)(Vehicle trucking/gammon bomb/emergency war speed)
Soviet compared to Ostheer get some free staff also like: Free Penal PTRS upgrade, free grenades for doctrinal infantry.
And again the main disadvantage Ostheer have is they pay for the tech regardless if they use it or not.
Ostheer player will pay for lmg, shreck bundle grenades,... even if they do not uses this items once. Ostheer do not have any real advantage when it comes to teching.
Not just Pz2 Luch, all light vehicles were nerfed in their AI capability, the Stuart, T70 as well.
Mostly overly so.
I'd be for all of their regaining their strong AI of old.
Would that be okay with you?
No way, Stuart and T70 were overly dominant wiping machines and are in a good place now. Stuart isn't really meant to be AI (IMO) it's more of a primary light vehicle hunter with some secondary light AI ability. T70 is in a very good place where if you can keep it alive to Vet 3 it has very good AI but its not the OP shock unit it used to be where it could chase squads down for days and wipe them with little effort as soon as it hit the field. Luches was just arriving too fast - it's AI ability is fine currently it just doesn't come fast enough now because they overdid it with the build time nerf by a little.
That is inaccurate allies get many things with tech:
USF tech
T1 LT (Squad with Thompson/bar cost 300)
T2 CT(Squad with Thompson that can upgrade bazooka, production speed buff cost 320)
T3 Major (Squad with Recon/FRTP/off map arty cost 160)
UKF tech
T1 (unlocks medic kit/Pyrotechnics 1 base gun)
T2 (unlocks 2 base gun)
Anvil/hammer (air-bust shells/Advanced warning/heavy engineers)(Vehicle trucking/gammon bomb/emergency war speed)
Yes true. Still usf and ukf have specific tech for getting main inf fully upgraded. In case of brits one tech can lock out the other.
Soviet compared to Ostheer get some free staff also like: Free Penal PTRS upgrade, free grenades for doctrinal infantry.
Ost and okw also get that. Pgrens get free bundle nades etc.
And again the main disadvantage Ostheer have is they pay for the tech regardless if they use it or not.
It still does not mean that it should counted as total cost of a fully upgraded squad.
Ostheer player will pay for lmg, shreck bundle grenades,... even if they do not uses this items once. Ostheer do not have any real advantage when it comes to teching.
Bundles dont require extra tech neither do shrecks. Its all readely available for a muni price just like penal ptrs.
Pls do not use the quote button if what you are going to write is totally irrelevant to what you are quoting.
The point remains BP 1 is require for access to bundle grenades.
BP1 is a way to set the timing of them, not an actual cost of getting them as that is not a separate upgrade, but a regular tech progression.
I feel the need to repeat it, because I do not have the feeling that you're capable of comprehending that after mentioning it only once.
You seem to be stuck in a misplaced conviction that ost tech is anymore expensive then other factions tech due to upgrades that are side upgrades for others being rolled into it - that is frankly, not true.
Part of regular progression =/= additional cost (its kinda in the name)
Best comparison is wehr and brits. Both linear, both have a "premium" final tier (post standard medium tank tier)
Getting armour =/= gettimg grenades for the the brits (or the soviet, or the usf) but it DOES for the axis.
ok if so we got a big problem in cost in the axis tech as it more expensive(as teh stuff is not counted as free)
and wait usf get a free bar, free squad, free retreat point, non doc barrage, non doc recon
and brits get free access to healing and get free barrage ability too for each tier, and free emplacement for each tier
this thing has been going for a long time, okw and ost don't have free stuff, they pay in the theching tree, usf and brits have it too, the only one who doesn't have it is soviet but their tech is cheaper to compensate
if BF1-2-3 was instead lmg and grenade tech it would not change anything
ok if so we got a big problem in cost in the axis tech as it more expensive(as teh stuff is not counted as free)
and wait usf get a free bar, free squad, free retreat point, non doc barrage, non doc recon
and brits get free access to healing and get free barrage ability too for each tier, and free emplacement for each tier
this thing has been going for a long time, okw and ost don't have free stuff, they pay in the theching tree, usf and brits have it too, the only one who doesn't have it is soviet but their tech is cheaper to compensate
if BF1-2-3 was instead lmg and grenade tech it would not change anything
While USF really do get freebies (LT, Cpt and Major) how is the Brits getting free healing or emplacements? I understand the extra Howitzer but it's like saying that OH get's free healing cause they get access to bunker and medics.
IF BP 123 was LMG and grenade, it would then make some tiers be more expensive to compensate, cause i'm not sure if there's anything unlocking with BP2. BP exist just to make timing of vehicles on check.
With so many patches, not sure how expensive teching for each faction is atm. There's also some faction starting with more mp.
While USF really do get freebies (LT, Cpt and Major) how is the Brits getting free healing or emplacements? I understand the extra Howitzer but it's like saying that OH get's free healing cause they get access to bunker and medics.
IF BP 123 was LMG and grenade, it would then make some tiers be more expensive to compensate, cause i'm not sure if there's anything unlocking with BP2. BP exist just to make timing of vehicles on check.
With so many patches, not sure how expensive teching for each faction is atm. There's also some faction starting with more mp.
yes i was just saying that ost doesn't have the option to not pick the upgrades and it delays them with the tier/upgrade to not give them an advantage to in the early game, i'm not saying they should be buffed i'm just removing the biased "axis get free upgrades" should we count having better mainline inf a free upgrade? u get the point right ?
btw the faction tied for the highest cost (with all upgrades and only upgrades) are usf/okw with 270fu tech cost and just 10 starting fuel, usf get more from their upgrades, come sooner and u can choose them all with a lot of free stuff but lack (or should at least, looking at u M36) late game power
okw get a bit of everything but is delayed by a lot (okw and ost need to buy and then build allied faction just buy/build them) but should (looking at u Panther) have great late game
to end it allied faction can get more from their upgrades, are optional but pay a bit more, while axis factions get mediocre upgrades already tied in the faction pay less, but they are delayed and are not optional
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