German Armour too Expensive

I still see Panthers getting used, often times very effectively, in team games (2v2 and above) all the time. In fact, if the game ever gets to that stage, it's basically a guarantee that axis players will use panthers.

I really want to spectate the games of people who make some ridiculous claims like "X unit is absolutely useless".

I imagine I'll see a lot of attack-move followed by looking away.

There is no point making infantry because MG
There is no point making MG because Mortars
There is no point making tanks because AT and Mines

There is no point making paper because scissors
There is no point making Scissors because things that throw rocks
There is no point making Rock because Paper.

Wittmann became a cult figure after the war thanks to his accomplishments as a "panzer ace" (a highly decorated tank commander) in the portrayal of the Waffen-SS in popular culture. The historian Stephen Hart comments "the Wittmann legend [has] become well-established" and "continues to stimulate huge public interest".[49] Military historian Steven Zaloga refers to Wittmann as "the hero of all Nazi fanboys" and discusses the popular perception of a tank versus tank engagement as an "armoured joust"—two opponents facing each other—with the "more valiant or better-armed [one] the eventual victor". He contends that perception is nothing but "romantic nonsense". Most of the successful tank commanders were indeed "bushwackers", according to Zaloga, having a battlefield advantage rather than a technical one: a tank crew that could engage its opponent before the latter spotted it often came out on top.[48]

Notice this part :
He contends that perception is nothing but "romantic nonsense"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Ekins
Wittmann's fate reflected that new reality: after transfer to France, his crew only
lasted two months, and was destroyed by a British medium tank, the up-gunned Sherman Firefly.[59]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Wittmann
He gained recognition for his action as a tank gunner in France in which he destroyed four tanks
in a day, including three Tigers (Tiger tanks numbers 312, 009 & 314).[6] One of his opponents
on that day, 8 August 1944 near St. Aignan de Cramesnil, France may have been the German tank
commander Michael Wittmann.[1][3][4][5]

The problem I see is that Ostheer is still on the backfoot early because of the four men squads but doesn't compensate lategame any longer since the lategame gap was closed/ shifted a bit to the Allies due to TD buffs.

The Panther vet 2 and Elefant nerfs did the rest to screw up any lategame for the Germans.

The problem then stems from dual Jacksons in synergy with superior BAR blobs.

OKW at this point relies on the Panzer IV crutch as well as Ostheer (in combination with the StuG). This however only lasts until the first Jackson arrives. Then the Allies have the upper hand in all regards.

The problem I see is that Ostheer is still on the backfoot early because of the four men squads but doesn't compensate lategame any longer since the lategame gap was closed/ shifted a bit to the Allies due to TD buffs.

The Panther vet 2 and Elefant nerfs did the rest to screw up any lategame for the Germans.

The problem then stems from dual Jacksons in synergy with superior BAR blobs.

OKW at this point relies on the Panzer IV crutch as well as Ostheer (in combination with the StuG). This however only lasts until the first Jackson arrives. Then the Allies have the upper hand in all regards.

Jackson : Went from 125 fuel to 140 fuel. Dmg from 240? to 160. ROF down, Pen UP.
Gained some health, however. In my book, it costs more and does less. But dies less suddenly.
Maybe that's the real issue. Improved survivability.
I know in real life, Firefly, etc could take out Tiger at 1200 meters.
T34-85 at 500 meters (Frontal Armor)

Reminds me of SU85. Less ROF, more Pen.

Panther losing it's vet 2 armor... Actually, I semi think the real issue is Sherman M4A3 having
had then AP profiles improved, methinks.

What German tanks got armor nerfs last patch?

panther and jp4 got increase armor removed at vet 2 but no base armor was removed from any of the tanks.

Then simply do not get them.

Meta of rushing for heaviest armor possible is dead.
Time for axis players to accept that fact, move on and remind themselves that there are units before P5, P6 and KT.

Yeah the current meta for Axis has fallen in line with allies. P4s, jp4s, and stugs are the answer. Which in my opinion is a better meta then heavy armor spam.

Yeah the current meta for Axis has fallen in line with allies. P4s, jp4s, and stugs are the answer. Which in my opinion is a better meta then heavy armor spam.

StuGs are the answer ever since first 34/85 neta emerged. Some people simply are slower and didnt noticed until now.

And yes, everything is better then saving up for heavy and counting on its power to carry you, but that was fixes with heavy nerfs so they are just another option, not THE option.

...
Jackson : Went from 125 fuel to 140 fuel. Dmg from 240? to 160. ROF down, Pen UP.
Gained some health, however. In my book, it costs more and does less.
...

Damage was 200 and went down to 160 for normal shots and from 240 to 200 to HVAP.

That has limited impact since a medium tank will still die to 4 shot and for Panther one will still have to use HVAP that still do 200 and kill the Panther in 4 shots.

The claim about ROF is actually false, ROF was increased since reload was decreased by almost 1 second.

Penetration was also increased and HP.

In other words the M36 kill mediums tanks faster and has more HP. Even vs highly armor vehicles its probably better since the faster fire and penetration probably overweight the damage.

So I am not really sure on what basis you formed your opinion that it now "costs more and does less"

...
Wittmann's fate reflected that new reality:
...

then lets not play this game at all, because in reality allies won the war and thus they should always win in the game also.

Reality "arguments", have very little place in game forum, immersion is great if it can achieved but not on expense of balance.

Pls try to avoid them.

The panther fights well with a tiger by it side. The elephant is still and option, and good players still use them. Ostheer struggles in open maps when the enemy builds 3 or more tds, but you can counter that with the elephant. In close quarters maps, the tiger and panther are beasts.

If you want to have extremely high armor value axis tanks in game, you need to have highly efficient allied TDs to counter them.

Sorry, can't have one without the other.

============

2x StuIIIG vs Sherman = Not OP.
2x Jackson vs Panther = OP???.

Wanting it to be without a counter is like saying you want a free uncounterable win.

Bonus:
StuIIIG shouldn't be able to kill scout car, because it's meant to easy kill Pershings.
Jacksons shoujldn't be able to kill Panzer4s, because it's meant to kill King Tigers.
Bonus 2 :
Jackson shouldn't be able to hurt King Tiger. King Tiger should be absolutely unbeatable!

then lets not play this game at all, because in reality allies won the war and thus they should always win in the game also.

Reality "arguments", have very little place in game forum, immersion is great if it can achieved but not on expense of balance.

Pls try to avoid them.

==================
There is no point making infantry because MG
There is no point making MG because Mortars
There is no point making tanks because AT and Mines

There is no point making paper because scissors
There is no point making Scissors because things that throw rocks
There is no point making Rock because Paper.

There is no point making Panthers because Jackson.
(I am surprised that Jackson only now became an issue.
It used to be 125 fuel and higher ROF AND do more dmg.
If anything it's weaker now than previously.
=========================
Damage was 200 and went down to 160 for normal shots and from 240 to 200 to HVAP.
- That I knew.

That has limited impact since a medium tank will still die to 4 shot and for Panther one will still have to use HVAP that still do 200 and kill the Panther in 4 shots.
- Didn't count that. You're still assuming perfect pens, which rarely happens.

The claim about ROF is actually false, ROF was increased since reload was decreased by almost 1 second.
- THAT I didn't know about. I'd heard the overall DPS had decreased (Less dmg AND less ROF, but higher
pen).

Penetration was also increased and HP.
- That I knew. Like SU85 (the PEN)(SU85 lost ROF but gained PEN)
- HP went from 480 to 600.
- SU76 and StuIIIG health also went up a few patches back. Both also TDs

The problem I see is that Ostheer is still on the backfoot early because of the four men squads but doesn't compensate lategame any longer since the lategame gap was closed/ shifted a bit to the Allies due to TD buffs.

The Panther vet 2 and Elefant nerfs did the rest to screw up any lategame for the Germans.

The problem then stems from dual Jacksons in synergy with superior BAR blobs.

OKW at this point relies on the Panzer IV crutch as well as Ostheer (in combination with the StuG). This however only lasts until the first Jackson arrives. Then the Allies have the upper hand in all regards.

When I read your post I was amazed that for a change here was a coherent, reasonable argument/observation rather the usual sour faced declarations & stiff necked allied bias of which 'his' posts always reek. LOL

I saw the icon without reading the name and assumed it was the great, great, great GREAT GREAT katitoff.

...
- THAT I didn't know about. I'd heard the overall DPS had decreased (Less dmg AND less ROF, but higher
pen)...

Since some people are not very accurate in their descriptions and tend to create misunderstandings I would advice you check things for yourself. This are the patch notes about the m36 that can be find here:

"M36 Jackson
The M36 is having its damage modified to be more reliable against tanks, including heavies, but less potent in terms of burst damage against lower health vehicles.

Cost from 360/125 to 400/140
Damage from 200 to 160
Reload from 5.2/5.8 to 4.375/4.975; does not affect HVAP
HVAP damage decreased from 240 to 200
HVAP penetration from 300/250/220 to 300/280/250
Penetration from 240/220/200 to 260/240/220
Health from 480 to 640
Veterancy 3 reload bonus from 30% to 15%"

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog#latest

Overall the M36 is more expensive and better, after the patch.

Well this thread is every bit a mess as i expected

The problem I see is that Ostheer is still on the backfoot early because of the four men squads but doesn't compensate lategame any longer since the lategame gap was closed/ shifted a bit to the Allies due to TD buffs.

The Panther vet 2 and Elefant nerfs did the rest to screw up any lategame for the Germans.

The problem then stems from dual Jacksons in synergy with superior BAR blobs.

OKW at this point relies on the Panzer IV crutch as well as Ostheer (in combination with the StuG). This however only lasts until the first Jackson arrives. Then the Allies have the upper hand in all regards.

This guy understands it ^ +1. There are many issues with the game currently, and this is just one of the few. Essentially Axis armor was too difficult for some people to deal with in the lategame, or poor decisions were made and they couldn't deal with it. So they nerfed heavy armor to oblivion and now axis crutch on mediums. Panthers, Tigers and elephants are all essentially unuseable against competant opponets if ceteris paribus

This guy understands it ^ +1. There are many issues with the game currently, and this is just one of the few. Essentially Axis armor was too difficult for some people to deal with in the lategame, or poor decisions were made and they couldn't deal with it. So they nerfed heavy armor to oblivion and now axis crutch on mediums. Panthers, Tigers and elephants are all essentially unuseable against competant opponets if ceteris paribus

This is pretty much my feeling since the patch. I don't understand why the panther took so much nerf, it's underperformance was already an issue.

The problem I see is that Ostheer is still on the backfoot early because of the four men squads but doesn't compensate lategame any longer since the lategame gap was closed/ shifted a bit to the Allies due to TD buffs.

Except ostheer is not in the backfoot in the early game, as long as you use the early sniper against brits/usf and mgs/mortars against soviets. Okw is better in the early game only for the first 2-3 minutes when sturmpio shines, then it's the ostheer that has easier time.

Ostheer is a solid early game faction as long as you don't try to rush T2.

This is pretty much my feeling since the patch. I don't understand why the panther took so much nerf, it's underperformance was already an issue.

because this patch was made by allie biased mods.

Look to the awefull opness form sov after the patch.tank Satchel only 45 muni? really? Best infantery (guards) with 2model sniper?
IL2-one-button-win-lol?

this patch was made by players who play only sov/ allies.

How dare those allied tanks fighting back against superior german armour!

Well the idea was that the axis has slow and well armoured tanks, but due to allied TD pen creep, the armour isnt as much of a benefit anymore.

This is pretty much my feeling since the patch. I don't understand why the panther took so much nerf, it's underperformance was already an issue.

"The panther is in a good place"