Su-76

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That is exactly the reason why you can. T-34 has same price tag as stug but more pop. Why would that be considered right?...

For a a very simple reason one is main battle tank able to fight both soft and hard targets and the other is specialized unit with an AT role only (ok it has mg).

Specialized units are designed to be cheaper and cost less pop for their performance.

Think about it in another way, if a unit like ostwind was available in the Soviet T4 there would very little reason to built it (accept for AA) over the T-34/76 since they cost about the same, have the same pop and although Ostwind is a bit better in AI T-34/76 is a far better choice.

If a Ostheer player spams stugs and invest all his fuel in them he will probably find himself in trouble because he will have very little AI.

may i write it in this thread at least?

playercard pls

Which idiot loses a 60 range TD to a 222?

One that got flanked. I know the game has devolved into "frontally attack until we break through"

You may not know this but the su76 doesnt have a turret, so any unit behind it (where its armour is only 35) isnt going to take damage from it.

A T-70 can circle strafe a KT. That does not say much neither for the value of the T-70 nor for the value of the KT.

That is exactly the reason why you can. T-34 has same price tag as stug but more pop. Why would that be considered right? Su-85 might be a little low at 12 but I don't think it is the matter to discuss in this thread.

For example the m10 is at 10 pop and it is similiar in performance and cost to stug. (it does not have the dps of the stug but has the crush and turret)

Another thing is that su-76 also has similar price tag to T-34 (although its cheaper than both t-34 and stug) and 8 pop is also pretty low for it.

That said I would be for either changing both stug and su-76 from 8 to 9, or su76 to 9 and stug to 10.

speciliezed units always need too have less pop than generalist units if not there is no point in building them so no stug pop cap to means that all other generalist pop increase too

One that got flanked. I know the game has devolved into "frontally attack until we break through"

You may not know this but the su76 doesnt have a turret, so any unit behind it (where its armour is only 35) isnt going to take damage from it.

You may not know this, but the elephant doesn't have a turret, so any unit (shocks in a m3) are free from damage behind it......

Try harder.

You really need to upload a reply for us to give you a feedback. We cannot balance the game on emotional losses. That being said, you maybe behind your teching if the opponent has 4 Su-76s. Panzershrek team are amazing vs SU-76s supported by P4 or Ostwind against Cons.

Man, you know there is some serious salt involved when Soviet sniper flares gets dropped as an example of something that needs balanced.

Underrated Post.

Just did a load of CheatMod testing on this. While I still don't care for the OP's attitude and tone I can understand their frustration now. Five SU-76s are very, very strong against the entire Ostheer vehicle arsenal.

I set up the following experiment. I found an area of open terrain on the Moscow Outskirts map. I turned Fog of War off so that every vehicle could fire at maximum range. I set up a line of enemy controlled SU-76s, then attacked them from the front with varying combinations of Ostheer vehicles.

My discovery was thus: if you charge five spotted for SU-76s over open ground with less than 375 fuel worth of vehicles (the price of five SU-76s) you will lose. Four StuGs? Dead. Two Panthers? Oblitered. Elefant? Annihilated. To beat the SU-76s in their element required more than the 375 fuel the SU-76s cost. It wasn't possible to play their game and come out on top.

The situation (high tier armor loosing against cheap low tier armor when spammed) would be very easily avoided if only Panthers and Tigers (and other heavies I might add) would do 200 damage per shot instead of the regular 160... they could two shot the Su 76s making Su 76 spam uneconomic in the long term.

The whole problem with the Su 76 (and StuG, but its OST's last bastion of hope )that you can spam it early and its just as, if not more viable to do the job of much higher tiered tanks later on, while also providing you an early advantage.

The far Penetration of both must be decreased to an extent (150-ish) that they are clearly anti-medium AT and not reliable anti-heavy AT.

You really need to upload a reply for us to give you a feedback. We cannot balance the game on emotional losses.

+1

The situation (high tier armor loosing against cheap low tier armor when spammed) would be very easily avoided if only Panthers and Tigers (and other heavies I might add) would do 200 damage per shot instead of the regular 160... they could two shot the Su 76s making Su 76 spam uneconomic in the long term.

The whole problem with the Su 76 (and StuG, but its OST's last bastion of hope )that you can spam it early and its just as, if not more viable to do the job of much higher tiered tanks later on, while also providing you an early advantage.

The far Penetration of both must be decreased to an extent (150-ish) that they are clearly anti-medium AT and not reliable anti-heavy AT.

Tell that to Relic's scope


If someone wants to pull out XP values for vehicles with similar cost, that would be great. As far as Su76 goes, i've said that a far range pen nerf is warranted.

Well as i see in a post higher use some AT inf like Pgren who are quite usefeull vs SU i find. Because if he spam SU he will not have a ton of inf and he'll have to micro a lot of things so you can advantage of it. Annnnnnnnnd in the end CAS man just use it, like seriously vs a spam of SU you rekt'em and if they back you can recup territories and plant mines.

If someone wants to pull out XP values for vehicles with similar cost, that would be great. As far as Su76 goes, i've said that a far range pen nerf is warranted.

Stug XP value 1510

Su-76 XP value 870

In addition as I have pointed out in previous post the combo of "tracking" and barrage is OP and imo barrage should replace the vet 1 ability of the unit.

You may not know this, but the elephant doesn't have a turret, so any unit (shocks in a m3) are free from damage behind it......

Try harder.

Except thats statistically untrue. A 222 will pen the rear armour of an su76 every time, shocks chance to pen an elefants rear are astronomically lower.

At any rate the point is that even a 222 is a threat to an su76 (or a brace of them) that the soviet player has to respond to. Should they turn to respond they will be unable to barrage your pak or send a volley off into your stug/p4/whatever else.

Dont bitch that such a cheap unit en masse can be effective when you COULD do the same with a cheaper unit still to counter them (yea its a bit more work, ill give yoy that but its a possible counter, or at least a reasonably cheap enough distraction)

Except thats statistically untrue. n)

You know what's statistically untrue? A 222 actually killing a vehicle from behind in an in game situation where it has to avoid mines, cons, guards, at penials, machine guns etc.

And you are FOS if you are suggesting that blobbing 222s are as effective to the same degree that su76s are.

*Looks at all allied medium tanks*
To put into perspective- the stug has a chance to bounce a t34 at point blank, but the su76 will NOT bounce a t34 at max range (let alone a panzer 4)

Unless of youre you are going to complain that a 90 fuel t3 isnt durable enough when facing down full tech TDs that are all minimum 50% more expensive. In which case how many panther shells is the su76 going to bounce? Or pak43 shells? Or JP4 shells? HELL an su76 is only going to bounce 1 in 2 222 shells and the stug can bounce full blown tank shells at max range almost the same amount of times (80 pen at max for t34/140 armour) falling to 1/3 with vet. What the fuck do you expect? A jp4 clone?

To put it in perspective, the Jackson only has 10 less armour yet that is considered to have paper armor (enough for it to get a HP buff )

And as I said before , if the su76 is allowed to have 60 range, so should the stug

Except thats statistically untrue. A 222 will pen the rear armour of an su76 every time, shocks chance to pen an elefants rear are astronomically lower.

At any rate the point is that even a 222 is a threat to an su76 (or a brace of them) that the soviet player has to respond to. Should they turn to respond they will be unable to barrage your pak or send a volley off into your stug/p4/whatever else.

Dont bitch that such a cheap unit en masse can be effective when you COULD do the same with a cheaper unit still to counter them (yea its a bit more work, ill give yoy that but its a possible counter, or at least a reasonably cheap enough distraction)

Yes, good luck spamming 222's, prepare a large bucket in advance for all the inevitable tears youre gonna shed.

To put it in perspective, the Jackson only has 10 less armour yet that is considered to have paper armor (enough for it to get a HP buff )

And as I said before , if the su76 is allowed to have 60 range, so should the stug

So 130 armour vs the piv's 110 pen at far for an 85% chance to pen at 40 vs 140 armour and the t34s 80 pen at far for a 57% chance to pen at 40. Its almost like armour is relative (kinda like how the su76 has HALF the armour of the stug, allowing it to be vulnerable to even a lowly 222)

Stug XP value 1510

Su-76 XP value 870

In addition as I have pointed out in previous post the combo of "tracking" and barrage is OP and imo barrage should replace the vet 1 ability of the unit.

Sorry but i think you are the only one who would think that way.
49 sight range/70 minimap icon doesn't make the combo nor barrage OP.

Su76: 870xp 280/75
AEC: 1160xp 280/60
Stug 1510xp 280/90
Puma OH: 1170xp
Puma OKW: 1340xp 320/70
M10: 1440xp
Stuart: 870xp 270/70

Considering offensive performance (120dmg), cost and survivability (400HP) it should go with AEC/Puma levels of XP value.

There's a key factor on delaying the vet plus changing some stats on it that it would make it fine. At vet 2 it gains a +20dmg which could easily be placed at vet 3 while swapping it with increased barrage range. At 140dmg, it means 1 shot less to kill 400/560/640 HP pool vehicles (normally 4/5/6).


Summarizing:

-If we have heavier tanks (Panther) dealing 200dmg with a slower RoF it would give it a place against both this low HP pool vehicles and premium mediums.
-Decreasing far/pen in general so they remain relevant against mediums but not heavier armored vehicles.
-Giving it a proper xp value so it both gives xp and takes simil time to vet as other vehicles.
-Swapping vet 2 with vet 3 damage modifier.

Sorry but i think you are the only one who would think that way.
49 sight range/70 minimap icon doesn't make the combo nor barrage OP.

Su76: 870xp 280/75
AEC: 1160xp 280/60
Stug 1510xp 280/90
Puma OH: 1170xp
Puma OKW: 1340xp 320/70
M10: 1440xp
Stuart: 870xp 270/70

Considering offensive performance (120dmg), cost and survivability (400HP) it should go with AEC/Puma levels of XP value.

There's a key factor on delaying the vet plus changing some stats on it that it would make it fine. At vet 2 it gains a +20dmg which could easily be placed at vet 3 while swapping it with increased barrage range. At 140dmg, it means 1 shot less to kill 400/560/640 HP pool vehicles (normally 4/5/6).


Summarizing:

-If we have heavier tanks (Panther) dealing 200dmg with a slower RoF it would give it a place against both this low HP pool vehicles and premium mediums.
-Decreasing far/pen in general so they remain relevant against mediums but not heavier armored vehicles.
-Giving it a proper xp value so it both gives xp and takes simil time to vet as other vehicles.
-Swapping vet 2 with vet 3 damage modifier.

I agree with all here

allowing it to be vulnerable

I dont think you know what those words mean.