[DBP] Ostruppen Doctrine feedback thread

Intent of the changes

The Ostruppen doctrine is already a highly-competitive doctrine for Ostheer. Thus, it beats us how this doctrine ever got nominated for a revamp in the first place.

Granted, Apart from Ostruppen superior early game, the doctrine doesn't give you much in terms of useful tools to make use of it. Thus, the intent of the changes are to give the doctrine more tools to play with, without making the doctrine live-version lend-lease-level-OP (i.e., high initiative and complete dominance from early game to late-game).

Ostruppen

Basic scalability changes. It might be that the accuracy debuff for LMGs advertised in the notes doesn't function properly yet. Thus, we have to investigate.

Artillery Officer

Live version Artillery Officer is a meh unit for the wrong faction. The rework will allow multiple OST doctrines to have access to a decent CQC unit, without having to go G43s every damn time.

The changes will hopefully make it so that we see Assault Support Doctrine as frequently as Lightning war doctrine.

Trenches

This is a textbook useless ability. We are giving this a bit more punch so that other doctrines also benefit from it.

We will have to evaluate the timing of the fortifications, and whether giving Ostruppen themselves to wire off stuff.

AT gun/MG supply drop

This is something to help the sustainability of the doctrine later in the game. Railway artillery is a decent ability for cost. However, the doctrine could use an alternative tool to grow. What better use for ostruppen than to man those weapons from the sky?

I like it, no more fuel drop for fast KT and oficer is awesome

I like having the extra man in the officer squad. This will help a little against wipes.
You should probably give them shared vet.

After some discussions with my friend he noted that the drop is too weak and redundant.

He notes that the MG34 is too weak and should be replaced by an MG42 while the AT gun is redundant because of the Osttruppen's Panzerfaust plus more often than not you go for T2 to get Halftracks out so you can reinforce in the field which is a major problem if you don't, especially with Osttruppen.

His opinion is that it should be replaced by either a mortar (like in CoH) or a LeiG, I'd say that a Mortar would be more in line with the Wehrmacht/Ostheer, he just likes the LeiG more.

And as far as the Osttruppen themselves go, he notes that the MG42 upgrade is too inaccurate and it's accuracy shouldn't be nerfed to 50% less but more like 25% less or replaced with the Obers' MG34 upgrade, well not the same upgrade entity, just weapon, of course Osts would be OP while walking around and shooting the 34 on the move lol.

Other than that he says that Defenses and the new Officer are welcomed changes.

Edit: We also talked about it and I suggested that a Panzerbusche upgrade be added to the Osts which gives them 2 AT Rifles to scare off armored threats and pack more of a punch rather than just the Panzerfaust.

He liked the idea and after that I suggested an MP40 upgrade be added but he said that with the amount of inaccuracy the Osts have it wouldn't be effective, same as the MG42. My idea was for the user to have an option of some cheaper make-shift assault infantry in close quarter combat in city maps for example, that's all.

Well, at first I have a bug, my osttroopen didn't want to buy MG-42 reason: the lack of another improvement, the main assumption is that they recrew Puppchen, the second they were the first to receive the 3rd level of veteran without MG
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Second, osttroopen its a ROA(RLA) soldiers and had a lot of Soviet weapons, I proposed to replace the MG-42 with the DP-27. To add the uniqueness of the commander, I propose to add ROA armor: trophy T-34 and/or Hetzer.
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After some discussions with my friend he noted that the drop is too weak and redundant.

He notes that the MG34 is too weak and should be replaced by an MG42 while the AT gun is redundant because of the Osttruppen's Panzerfaust plus more often than not you go for T2 to get Halftracks out so you can reinforce in the field which is a major problem if you don't, especially with Osttruppen.

His opinion is that it should be replaced by either a mortar (like in CoH) or a LeiG, I'd say that a Mortar would be more in line with the Wehrmacht/Ostheer, he just likes the LeiG more.

And as far as the Osttruppen themselves go, he notes that the MG42 upgrade is too inaccurate and it's accuracy shouldn't be nerfed to 50% less but more like 25% less or replaced with the Obers' MG34 upgrade, well not the same upgrade entity, just weapon, of course Osts would be OP while walking around and shooting the 34 on the move lol.

Other than that he says that Defenses and the new Officer are welcomed changes.

Edit: We also talked about it and I suggested that a Panzerbusche upgrade be added to the Osts which gives them 2 AT Rifles to scare off armored threats and pack more of a punch rather than just the Panzerfaust.

He liked the idea and after that I suggested an MP40 upgrade be added but he said that with the amount of inaccuracy the Osts have it wouldn't be effective, same as the MG42. My idea was for the user to have an option of some cheaper make-shift assault infantry in close quarter combat in city maps for example, that's all.

I think the AT gun is a good option. It is actually the only reason why this drop is worth getting in the first place becouse of its price and becouse it is often needed somewhere when you get flanked and the drop may save you.

As for lmgs, from the patch notes I get the impression that upgraded mg-42 should get full performance. They only note the nerf to weapons that have been picked up from the ground. So, if this lmg is weaker than it should be, it should probably be considered as a bug.

I couldn't get 'Coordinated barrage' to work. I had a mortar and a pwerfer, and the officer model was alive.
From test game vs AI.

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What does the reworked officer do?

after testing the new Ostruppen with their lmgs and without at various distances and vet, vs un-upgraded riflemen and upgraded riflemen, the lmg seems kinda weak. at best the lmg brings the Ostruppen to slightly above par with unupgraded riflemen but only barely, basicly makes them the same. Once you add in weapon upgrades riflemen win hands down every engagement.

The penalty seems too much. By the time you can get lmgs you'll be facing vetted and most likely upgraded brit and usf infantry. The bonus damage the lmg gives isn't high enough where it makes it that much better than before. It is better than nothing but it doesn't really solve any of Ostruppen's problems, particularly when you add in the fact that they only stand any chance while in cover and that still doesn't cut it.

I would remove from the lmg the -50% penalty.

after testing the new Ostruppen with their lmgs and without at various distances and vet, vs un-upgraded riflemen and upgraded riflemen, the lmg seems kinda weak. at best the lmg brings the Ostruppen to slightly above par with unupgraded riflemen but only barely, basicly makes them the same. Once you add in weapon upgrades riflemen win hands down every engagement.

The penalty seems too much. By the time you can get lmgs you'll be facing vetted and most likely upgraded brit and usf infantry. The bonus damage the lmg gives isn't high enough where it makes it that much better than before. It is better than nothing but it doesn't really solve any of Ostruppen's problems, particularly when you add in the fact that they only stand any chance while in cover and that still doesn't cut it.

I would remove from the lmg the -50% penalty.

Its true as to what he says in terms of when they get their upgrade, you'll most likely ve facing uograded and vetted infantry.

The penalty may be high, but keep in mind they shouldnt replace mainline infantry.

If anything the upgrade should be something like 45 munitions and possibly unlocked at battle phase 2 due to serverity of the penalty.

I personally wouldn't advise strengthing the gun though since this can be easily abusable.

For the supply drop, here is a simple idea. For the AT gun why not a "Pak 36" that uses the M42 entity. The Pak 36 was issued to Fallshimjaeger units and other light infantry. This weapon could fit thematically with both the Luftwaffe supply and as a reserve style unit of osttruupen.

"Oh, but it is a crap weapon." Not if it where pointed at the lighter armor of the Allies.

"Oh, but the Pak 36 looks like nothing an M42." There are two posted pictures below. Which one is the PaK and which one is the M42?

Based on the wikia article of the Pak 36 there is a rocket like thing for perhaps for a veterancy ability?

After some discussions with my friend he noted that the drop is too weak and redundant.

He notes that the MG34 is too weak and should be replaced by an MG42 while the AT gun is redundant because of the Osttruppen's Panzerfaust plus more often than not you go for T2 to get Halftracks out so you can reinforce in the field which is a major problem if you don't, especially with Osttruppen.

Not sure why your friend would think this. When I first read the changes to this commander, I thought that this ability was one of the more powerful abilities, as paradropping an AT gun essentially lets you completely skip T2 and save all your fuel for fast T3.

Is this not how the doctrine plays out in game?

Not sure why your friend would think this. When I first read the changes to this commander, I thought that this ability was one of the more powerful abilities, as paradropping an AT gun essentially lets you completely skip T2 and save all your fuel for fast T3.

Is this not how the doctrine plays out in game?

I think what he ment is that the ostruppen doctrine have always been best used with a reinforcement halftrack. Still, I agree that AT gun drop is amazing ability. Plus, its even better if there are going to be many different builds for that doctrine.

I personally find that the supply drop with the Pak40 and mg34 are great. If anything maybe lowering it to 2cps but wouldnt really change it outside of that.

Although a pak36 if it performs like the soviets m42 AT gun definitely needs to be sooner since by 3cps is a little late for a lack luster AT gun.

My feedback:

- Ostruppen:
The fact that they are 6 man makes them good. They will however lose every fight in the mid game against for example vet 2 bars riflemen or vet 2 upgraded infantry sections. The upgrade of the lmg's comes quite late. You have to actually build tier 4. You probably get this around 15 min if you have an ok game or maybe even later. It seems fair to me that the lmg upgrade comes later then normal, as ostruppen are six man. But that late? I don't know. I mean ostruppen normally don't have that much kills anyways. And then also not allowing them to get their lmg's untill pretty late. I think it's maybe a bit over kill. Tier 4 upgrade or maybe even build tier 3 seems a fine timing for allowing players to upgrade their ostruppen.

- Defense structures thing:
I haven't really used it that much. I should use it more, as it's a great thing that ostruppen can now build heavy cover as they are a way better unit in heavy cover then that they are in yellow or less cover. Even though this change seems small, i think it can work out great!
Haven't used the trenches at all. If they can be recaptured by the enemy (which is logical) i dont think people will use it that much anymore, unless maybe build one on your cutoff so you can maybe better defend your cutoff, even though this works aroudn the other way as well

-Supply drop
240+320= 560. You also have to build tier 2 to get a pak. So let's make that 650 manpower and some fuel. That's what it costs to get a mg and a pak if you do it the regular way.
Now you get a pak and mg for 450 manpower. And you also get fuel and munition for it! Don't get me wrong. I love the ability. It's a really good ability, and it works well in the game. It seems to really do good in this commander in combination with ostruppen. But don't you think that 450, if you look at it technically, isn't a bit to cheap? I can image that it becomes pretty op in some modes as it allowes you to skip a full tier building. Again don't get me wrong. I think 450 is expensive, but what you get for it is great. It shouldn't be more expensive bcs probably nobody would use it then. But if you look at it really really objective, it's crazy that you can get these things for 450 manpower, while normally you get it for 650 manpower and 20 fuel or something and now you get fuel and munition back for it as well! I'm not sure about the cost. I'd say leave it at 450 for now and test it more and have a look if it maybe needs to be a bit more expensive, which could very well be the case. The overall idea and the ability itself is great though, love it

- The officer (don't know how it's exactly called)
Holy shit
Love this squad. It's pretty bad at long range, but at close range it does quite an amount of damage. But the ability's of the unit are way better. The smoke is really usefull. You can cover retreating tanks, you can smoke an enemy mg or you can smoke sight for a sniper or just smoke for capping in general. The mortar artillery strike is really usefull to push of mg's and at gun's and i think it does a good amount of damage for the perfect price of 40 munition. The unit is 240 manpower, which is a fair cost imo as the squad itself doesn't deal to much damage (apart from maybe close range) but the abilities that come with it can be really usefull. I would suggest you don't change anything to this unit. It seems in a perfect spot atm imo

- Railway
Well yeah nothing much to say about it. Rng is great to deny area's or to push the enemy out of area's. Still the same, and it shouldn't be changed. It's good as it is imo


Hope this feedback is usefull

Not sure why your friend would think this. When I first read the changes to this commander, I thought that this ability was one of the more powerful abilities, as paradropping an AT gun essentially lets you completely skip T2 and save all your fuel for fast T3.

Is this not how the doctrine plays out in game?

You can skip it and I also thought about skipping T2 with this doctrine (similar to Mechanized Assault) but again, you're being reduced to static reinforcing using Bunkers which isn't going to be really feasible in the long run since you will have to move around and each reinforce bunker you make is 150 man power and 60 ammo, plus time, time and resource which can be spent on tanks, researching and building tiers, reinforcing, making tanks, making more Osttruppen and so forth.

But the MG34 is still too weak, plus as someone else mentioned, you're getting an MG, a Pak 40, fuel and ammo from a drop that costs 450 man power, how long do you really think that will hold out for without it getting nerfed? Either the MG34 should be buffed or replaced with an MG42 IF the price is increase, at least that's how I view it.

And again as other people have mentioned, the MG42 upgrade comes out too late for the Osttruppen and is wayyy too inaccurate, I'd rather they reduced the inaccuracy from 50% to 25% as my friend suggested or be it replaced with the MG34, not the Obers version tho.

Meh, the Field Officer ist still boring and pretty much useless. The scenarios where I would select him over a second mortar squad is ridiculously small. The second mortar will serve you better in the long run, and what little actual combat effectiveness you could hope to gain from the Officer squad itself is easily offset by the fact that a well managed mortar won't cost you a single dime to reinforce.

Hell, even another Grenadier squad is a better choice at that point, because with G43s, they will generally perform better in regards to your needs as Ostheer. So if the idea was to provide an alternative to G43-Grens, it doesn't work. Not even slightly.


Osttruppen are still weirdly useless, they do fill a unique role for Ostheer, but at the same time throughout their history, they have always been the answer to a question nobody asked. They had their moments in the sun, but that has been long forgotten with their ridiculous price increases that were never (aren't now) matched by their performance. Why the fuck should I invest ammunition into their LMG, if it does absolutely nothing to help them gain some sort of power? They units they face are still so vastly more powerful than they are, that all you do is throwing ammo away that could have been spent on MGs or G43s for your Grens.



The fortifications are also not very interesting, but that doesn't have to do with this commander, and is an issue on the other side, with artillery making any kind of investment (either resources or time) into fortifications that aren't British emplacements useless. Why the fuck would I hunker down and eat damage (i.e. spend manpower to reinforce), when I can do more by staying mobile? Company of Artillery simply doesn't work well with fortifications, unless they are as ridiculous as the British ones.


Last but not least, the supply drop. Weeeeelllll, it does save you some manpower, but considering that you basically announce to your enemy what you're getting makes it kind of pointless. Not to mention that if you rely on the drop to get you those weapons, they will come too late anyway - you will have the infrastructure up to get them by that point, and there's no way in hell you will forgo that tech - not with Osttruppen having to be reinforced constantly on the go. I just don't see the point of it, I'd never consider using it, unless I were to be in a pretty rough spot. And in that case, I doubt that this ability could pull me out of there.


I don't really know what could be done to improve most of the things in this doctrine (aside from the Officer, which has been pretty obvious since the day he first hit the field), but I do know that in the form as presented in the Preview, I would never pick the commander in a live game. Ain't gonna happen. Elite Troops (or Lightning War) is still more useful, and that's not because that commander is too good...

My feedback:
Supply drop
I'd say leave it at 450 for now and test it more and have a look if it maybe needs to be a bit more expensive, which could very well be the case. The overall idea and the ability itself is great though, love it

IDK, I think 450 is pretty fair considering you have to spend manpower to recrew them (which can be fairly expensive for the other supply drop zone commanders that don't have Ostruppen). Throw in the fact that it's a MG34 (everyone's favorite HMG) and I think it's a pretty square deal. I guess they could always switch the PAK to a Raketen if it's too good for the cost

Osttruppen Report Card:

Osttruppen
Allows the WM player to gain a very strong map presence in the early game. After the LMG accuracy nerf they aren't extremely powerful anymore, but thanks to the cost decrease I would say that the cost is reasonable.

Artillery Officer
Quite underwhelming as a combat unit; I think the lost DPS on one MP40 makes quite a difference; I can't recall Assault Grenadiers losing the Conscripts at close range. I don't quite understand the Diversion ability; it's not very effective as a combat unit, thus it isn't a tool for aggression but more of a combat boost in 1v1 situations to ensure that you win the engagement. Coordinated Barrage UI description might need to be changed now that it doesn't affect mortars. Heavy Mortar Barrage works quite decently for such an inexpensive ability.

I would suggest replacing the Diversion ability with an Artillery Flares ability. Essentially you pay a small MU cost for an off-map artillery piece to fire three flares over the indicated location (but of course, the targeted area needs to be within, say 75m of the officer). Would give the officer a greater support role in the form of recon.

Defensive Tactics
This gives all WM infantry, especially Osttruppen a huge buff because they can build their own cover. Trenches are still a poor choice in most situations however.
I would suggest reducing the CP requirement to 0, which would give this commander a huge boost in the early game, where most sandbags are built.

Supply Drop
Very cost-effective. 450MP for the whole package, plus 160MP (assuming you use Osttruppen to crew them) to operate the weapons.

Railway Artillery
Personally, I'm not a very big fan of RNG zoning abilities, but Railway still does its zoning job quite well, and is effective against British emplacements.

The artillery officer feels pretty lackluster in combat. He can at most be a situational unit unless this is improved.

I don't think this is ideal since I don't think you are really going to use a situational unit if you purchase several ostruppen and use the supply drop, in addition to w/e t1/t2 units you desire.

he does vet up pretty easily with shared exp though.