Emplacements need a major redesign

I would prefer changing so modifiers to specific units so that ostheer has a non doctrinal answer to them. As long as they have a counter they don't really need a change.

If neither team did anything, would it not technically be a draw? Unless I understood you wrong. The difference is that 4 Mortars can be easily pushed off the field. Double Mortar Pit supported by Bofors simply can´t be. Not until you get tanks and even then, all he needs is an AT gun, because bringing infantry support to a proximity of Bofors is suicide. I also haven´t said they lose all the time. Sure, I beat them, but they must have beaten somebody on the way, right? It´s not like it is a losing strategy automatically, only if they are noobs(which they usually are, but not always). If they actually know how to control their infantry and tanks, you are in deep trouble. The scale on which something is happening matters, not just the principle. People don´t build 4 mortars, because it is a stupid strategy and doesn´t work. However, people do build emplacements pretty often, because it actually works quite well. I mean, if he keeps building them, it must have worked out for him in the past hasn´t it?

I was saying 1 team can just sit back and do nothing while the other team goes and scores on them eventually. So the other dude beat some noobs that barely understand the game like himself, big deal. I used to win by spamming sturmpioneers or conscripts with guards lol. That doesn't mean it's a viable strategy. Hell, you probably could have gotten away with four mortars seeing as he became had over 1200 manpower in a concentrated sim city. Emplacement spam really does not work well at any higher level of play though. They're just too vulnerable due to not being able to move.

I would prefer changing so modifiers to specific units so that ostheer has a non doctrinal answer to them. As long as they have a counter they don't really need a change.

They have plenty of counters, even nondoctrinally. They have flamethrowers and flame ht if the bofors braces, they have mortars (the best counter) they have paks of the pit is occupied or braced, and later on they have the brummbar and pwerfer, which absolutely wreck sim cities. Doctrinally, they've got the mortar ht, the puma, lefh later on (another sterling counter), and the elefant, as well as offmaps. Or you could always just force a brace on the bofors and rush in with a bunch of grenadiers and maybe a flamethrower. That works too.

They have plenty of counters, even nondoctrinally. They have flamethrowers and flame ht if the bofors braces, they have mortars (the best counter) they have paks of the pit is occupied or braced, and later on they have the brummbar and pwerfer, which absolutely wreck sim cities. Doctrinally, they've got the mortar ht, the puma, lefh later on (another sterling counter), and the elefant, as well as offmaps. Or you could always just force a brace on the bofors and rush in with a bunch of grenadiers and maybe a flamethrower. That works too.

All these non doctrinal "counters" don´t work if the cancer pit is placed behind a shot blocker. And even if you reach emplacements with flame weapons, a Bofors will kill off any infantry or flame HT faster than the other way around. Usually the Bofors will survife the flames while braced and then the funny situation occurs that the Bofors unbraces and finishes off the supposed hard counters within seconds. Moving Paks into mortar pit range also means dead Paks. The same goes for regular mortars.

Long story short: Ostheer has no cost effective non-doctrinal counter to emplacements. The micro burden is on the Ostheer players side. While the Brit presses one button, the Ostheer player must apply constant pressure with units that are fragile to the emplacements. If the Brit manages to stall the attack the manpower bleed will cripple the Ostheer player while the Brit just needs to repair.

All these non doctrinal "counters" don´t work if the cancer pit is placed behind a shot blocker. And even if you reach emplacements with flame weapons, a Bofors will kill off any infantry or flame HT faster than the other way around. Usually the Bofors will survife the flames while braced and then the funny situation occurs that the Bofors unbraces and finishes off the supposed hard counters within seconds. Moving Paks into mortar pit range also means dead Paks. The same goes for regular mortars.

Long story short: Ostheer has no cost effective non-doctrinal counter to emplacements. The micro burden is on the Ostheer players side. While the Brit presses one button, the Ostheer player must apply constant pressure with units that are fragile to the emplacements. If the Brit manages to stall the attack the manpower bleed will cripple the Ostheer player while the Brit just needs to repair.

Shot blockers? Are you kidding me? Get a flame ht and attack ground over the shot blocker. Mortars and grenades still work too. If your problem is with the bofors, shell it till it braces, then attack it in a hit and run. Make sure you know when it will come off of brace, and pull any vehicles and/or retreat before then. Simcities are totally counterable and once you demolish them you've pretty much won.

I was saying 1 team can just sit back and do nothing while the other team goes and scores on them eventually. So the other dude beat some noobs that barely understand the game like himself, big deal. I used to win by spamming sturmpioneers or conscripts with guards lol. That doesn't mean it's a viable strategy. Hell, you probably could have gotten away with four mortars seeing as he became had over 1200 manpower in a concentrated sim city. Emplacement spam really does not work well at any higher level of play though. They're just too vulnerable due to not being able to move.

Then you haven´t understood my point one bit. That is what we are dealing with. People with an entire team staying right inside their own goal and getting away with it, more often than they should. There are EASY counters to everyone of those cheesy strategies you named, which are roughly as easy as the build itself(like an Ostwind against infantry spam). The problem with emplacements is that it takes 50 minutes to win a game, while your skill has to be significantly higher, to constantly dodge the bombardment. The counters to emplacements are pretty hard to execute, while the enemy has to do nothing. Even HelpingHans admitted this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkVxsYNab0s&list=PLwkm_w8wXFhjEX14k1f3Z2EWgYuIFi-Cf&index=13 I mean, come on man. Notice how complex and difficult his counter-strategy is, as opposed to just building something.

Then you haven´t understood my point one bit. That is what we are dealing with. People with an entire team staying right inside their own goal and getting away with it, more often than they should. There are EASY counters to everyone of those cheesy strategies you named, which are roughly as easy as the build itself(like an Ostwind against infantry spam). The problem with emplacements is that it takes 50 minutes to win a game, while your skill has to be significantly higher, to constantly dodge the bombardment. The counters to emplacements are pretty hard to execute, while the enemy has to do nothing. Even HelpingHans admitted this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkVxsYNab0s&list=PLwkm_w8wXFhjEX14k1f3Z2EWgYuIFi-Cf&index=13 I mean, come on man. Notice how complex and difficult his counter-strategy is, as opposed to just building something.

I see your point. The thing is, my point is that you can't call for balance on this issue because it's not a good strategy. It doesn't work. Sure, you take a lot more effort to counter his simcity, but making a simcity is still not going to win you many games. It's pretty much exactly like blobbing. There may be some contributing factors, but the bottom line is that you're calling for balance over something that is annoying, not overpowered.

Shot blockers? Are you kidding me? Get a flame ht and attack ground over the shot blocker. Mortars and grenades still work too. If your problem is with the bofors, shell it till it braces, then attack it in a hit and run. Make sure you know when it will come off of brace, and pull any vehicles and/or retreat before then. Simcities are totally counterable and once you demolish them you've pretty much won.

It sounds like you haven't ever actually played as ostheer against Sim city. It's not viable in 1s due to loss of map control and it's less effective in 3s and 4s but in 2v2s it's very strong. Why? Because the maps are small enough that you can't ignore them, and you have an ally that can cap for you and defend you when under pressure.


Early game:
Mortars die to Brit mortars or can't get in close enough

Flamer HT gets hard countered by Bofors or any AT platform

Paks get decrewed by mortars or forced out of range/sight

Pgrens with Shreks or flamer pios get countered by Bofors

Mid game:
All t3 tanks get halted by single AT since they can't flank due to high penentration of bofors.

Late game:
Ostheer needs werfers or they'll have an extremely hard time.

Note that this is only the case if ostheer doesn't pick the right commanders.
I don't typically struggle against Sim city but if I make one mistake trying to counter it it's an uphill battle from then on.

TLDR: ostheer counter to Sim city doesn't come until its too late.

Indestructible? Double mortar, double isg/leig (whichever one you call it), flame ht shooting over shot blockers if available, puma, stuka + rushing with infantry once braced, going around the damn city and capping till p4 beg otherwise.

Seriously if someone said medium tanks are indestructible, no one would take them seriously. So why is it ok to say emplacements are indestructible? Cheesy, but they literally can't even move.

Dispite the fact that brits mortar is alone and no covered by blob inf / MG / AEC / Bofor (for the lulz), you argument is valid ...

I rather have something that is mobile and can deal with shrek blobs or multiple reketans.
It is hard countering them without going comets, flame church, or land mattress.
Centaur gets forced away from multiple shreks or reketans
The church is good, but it rarely kills units with its cannon.
I think I would trade the mortar pit for the sexton.
Instead, Maybe they could buff the normal Churchill's splash or accuracy? Idk? I was trying to be a unique hipster and play without using comets, Flame crocs, land mattress, emplacements, or royal arty.

So this topic is just a waste of everybody's time because you're complaining about not winning fast enough against Sim City?

Well I'm sorry for wasting my time posting the obvious solution to the problem then.

That being the replacing of the mortar pit, a key element of any Sim City.

Take out it's supporting in-direct fire, and you've effectively shut down his Sim City.

Dispite the fact that brits mortar is alone and no covered by blob inf / MG / AEC / Bofor (for the lulz), you argument is valid ...

Well yeah, anything is invincible if you cover it with an entire army. But that means that they can't go anywhere else, so you should be outcapping.

Bofors penning a tiger frontally, bofors being able to counter Ost mortar with barrage, bofors being able to have StarWars invincibility shield for tens of seconds, bofors's rate of fire.

Noob proof!

Funny thing is that I´ve never seen a good player/team losing against the emplacements ...

Funny thing is that I´ve never seen a good player/team losing against the emplacements ...

Sure, if you are DevM or HelpingHans, or Luvnest, or Jove, the emplacements can be dealt with. And even if you are average, you can still beat these c*nts. I mostly do. However, I think that the problems with the quality of the game experience itself shouldn´t be ignored either. Constantly coming up against emplacements while playing Axis vs Brits(in 1v1s, it is like 40-60% of the time, in team games more like 90%) is simply frustrating and really ruins the quality of the game, at least for me. It is part of the reason why I personally stopped playing team games completely. I think that overall, they reward you for having bad micro and wanting to camp(and if you look at the poll, I am definitely not alone), which really should not be a part of any good RTS in the first place IMO. I only want the best for this game, I love it. But what happens when there is something frustrating, that people don´t want to deal with over and over, only to meet it in the next match again? They leave the game and might never come back when CoH3 maybe comes out eventually, further reducing the player base.

Bofors penning a tiger frontally, bofors being able to counter Ost mortar with barrage, bofors being able to have StarWars invincibility shield for tens of seconds, bofors's rate of fire.

Noob proof!

and all that for 280 mp and 30 fuel LOL

Another map where emplacements are totally broken is Crossroads. It´s a great map but just way too easy to lock down 2/3 of it with sim city. It seems like a lot of Brits players are trying to abuse their way to free wins by just building two mortar pits and bofors or an at gun in their own half and then do NOTHING but defend their emplacements while controlling 2 VP and fuel.

In my opinion the entrie British faction needs to be redesigned, not just emplacements. It might be boring for some but I think Brits should be made more similiar to the other factions.

Bofors penning a tiger frontally, bofors being able to counter Ost mortar with barrage, bofors being able to have StarWars invincibility shield for tens of seconds, bofors's rate of fire.

Noob proof!

I'm sure a tiger fears the almighty 25 penetration (E: 30 if you park next to it) of the bofors. If you think a bofors can counter an ost mortar solo then you clearly haven't tried it anytime recently. It can pin it, sure, but it won't seriously threaten its health.

Sure, if you are DevM or HelpingHans, or Luvnest, or Jove, the emplacements can be dealt with. And even if you are average, you can still beat these c*nts. I mostly do. However, I think that the problems with the quality of the game experience itself shouldn´t be ignored either. Constantly coming up against emplacements while playing Axis vs Brits(in 1v1s, it is like 40-60% of the time, in team games more like 90%) is simply frustrating and really ruins the quality of the game, at least for me. It is part of the reason why I personally stopped playing team games completely. I think that overall, they reward you for having bad micro and wanting to camp(and if you look at the poll, I am definitely not alone), which really should not be a part of any good RTS in the first place IMO. I only want the best for this game, I love it. But what happens when there is something frustrating, that people don´t want to deal with over and over, only to meet it in the next match again? They leave the game and might never come back when CoH3 maybe comes out eventually, further reducing the player base.

You´re right. The problem with emplacements isn´t they power. Even averange player can take them down.

The problem is that those emplacements take too much time to be taken down, which makes the game feel boring.

What most players here are traying to suggest, is to make emplacements weaker, this way or another, so they are taken down much faster.

Yes, this is halfway to go. But we cannot forget that we need to do another changes as well. If emplacements are only sinkhole for resouces and are always taken down, why would you build them ?

That´s why I think we need to make also some buffs to them, along with nerfs, to make them appealing and funny to play for both sides.


For example to make mortar pit funny to play and actually make it worth the resources is to make it only autofire on ambient buildings, that are in control of the enemy. If you want to use it elswhere, you´ll have to use normal barrage (barrage time should be lowered).

Also decrease brace duration to 10 seconds and brace cooldown to 40 second (10 seconds brace, 30 seconds opportunity time) so it offers some kidn of prostection against offmaps/ tank rush but it´s no longer so annoing to fight against. If you are able to fire at mortar pit for longer than 10 seconds, you´ll be awarded with dead mortar pit. And if you aren´t able to kill it withing 30 seconds, you opponent will get another brace, to maybe save the pit.

I think this change would make brace far more interesting, micro intesive and funnier for both sides.

Mortar pit cost should go to 250 mapower and mortar pit should only contain one mortar, with the option of buying second one for another 200 manpower. Popcap should be decreased a bit and then increased even more with second mortar pit.

It should be worth it to get 2 mortars into one pit for firepower but still it should cost more manpower and popcap than current morar pit.

What do you think ?