Eastern Front Armies Revamp

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To be honest USF pop cap abuse is never a factor in 1v1s unless the match has already been determined for quite some time. I can see for 3v3 and 4v4 but never for 1s. I always need my vehicles and tanks not just sitting around doing nothing.

Scotts aren't that helpful to be honest. Even in pairs their more of a RNG machine and personally I'd make the barrage have a quicker cool down in exchange for less than effective auto fire.

Jackson should have the same HP as M10 and be faster and/or maneuverable then other medium tanks to really be a quick, hard hitting but fragile tank destroyer. By the way it already does do 200 damage and has 200 penetration which isn't bad by any stretch. Combine it with HVAP and vet 3 it basically has 100% to pen a Panther.

Jackson should have the same HP as M10 and be faster and/or maneuverable then other medium tanks to really be a quick, hard hitting but fragile tank destroyer. By the way it already does do 200 damage and has 200 penetration which isn't bad by any stretch. Combine it with HVAP and vet 3 it basically has 100% to pen a Panther.

Some info to your knowledge
Its accuracy of Jackson and Long reload time - wich if you stack it gives posible 3 hits from Pz4 (for example) for free..

Thats why FireFly is always welcome and it has same ~ HP as Jackson (Firefly dies in 3 shot).

snip

Firefly has 640 HP and don't quite understand what your saying about the Jackson and three hits? Having 560 means it can take 3 AT gun hits and faust before dying.

How about to give to IS-2 and KV-8 some usefull abilities? Cap point for heavy tanks...is weird and absolutely unfitting to their roles.

Firefly has 640 HP and don't quite understand what your saying about the Jackson and three hits? Having 560 means it can take 3 AT gun hits and faust before dying.

The difference between FireFly and Jackson is accuracy many axis players know it. So there is a reason when you may Ofthen see one with better result.
So I am pretty sure , you know what i am talking about..

Before you and the balance team do anything drastic with pop cap, please check how many of the GCS games had a USF that was abusing pop cap. IMHO, most of the players who complain about this want to camp until late game, when they can just roll in with their better late-game tanks.

If you have to do something, just make the Priest so that it can't be decrewed. Then put a limit of two of them, but put the same limit on every other howitzer, except the Sexton because anyone bad enough to build that POS deserves to lose faster.

Also, for USF, if you made vehicle crews have higher pop (like 6 or 8), there wouldn't be as much incentive to decrew vehicles unless repairing. Don't know what you would give in return as USF really doesn't need any nerfs right now.

Please be careful when buffing the Scott. Good players are already really good with it. Double Scotts wiping vet 5 Volks is really annoying. Maybe just give them a little longer barrage range.

Lastly, the M10 and M36 were built on the Sherman and should have almost as many hit points. The open-top turret should have given them sight range like a scout car but made them really vulnerable to main gun crits (fixed after recrewing). The M36 should be able to penetrate the front of a Panther most of the time, and probably do around 200 damage.

Popcap fixing goes both ways.

In one way, you have popcap abuse. This is only a factor when USF is still in the game by the late-game (rarely).

The other side of the coin is that you have a lot of garbage units that take up more than a quarter of your popcap, without you noticing. Fancy seeing how much popcap officers/ambulance/AAHT/pak howitzers/scotts take for what they give in return for their performance?

This clogs up your popcap and eats your manpower.

To be honest USF pop cap abuse is never a factor in 1v1s unless the match has already been determined for quite some time. I can see for 3v3 and 4v4 but never for 1s. I always need my vehicles and tanks not just sitting around doing nothing.

Scotts aren't that helpful to be honest. Even in pairs their more of a RNG machine and personally I'd make the barrage have a quicker cool down in exchange for less than effective auto fire.

Jackson should have the same HP as M10 and be faster and/or maneuverable then other medium tanks to really be a quick, hard hitting but fragile tank destroyer. By the way it already does do 200 damage and has 200 penetration which isn't bad by any stretch. Combine it with HVAP and vet 3 it basically has 100% to pen a Panther.

Bingo.

Panzer Support Tactics
-The Panzergrenadier squad links with a friendly tank
-The tank gains +10% accuracy, -5% scatter, +7% rotation, +10% acceleration bonuses
-The Panzergrenadier squad gains +7 sight
-The bonuses only apply as long as the two units remain within 30 range from each other
-20MU
-Duration: 20 seconds
-Shares cooldown with the “Track Vehicle” ability

Finally, been wanting something like this for ages for the Panzergrenadiers.

And MOST IMPORTANT PART USF HAS NO AT GUN

USF AT gun is working really really well for it's price but hey some people expect that every shot will penetrate KT and Tigers frontal armor.

USF AT gun is working really really well for it's price but hey some people expect that every shot will penetrate KT and Tigers frontal armor.

"take aim" ability should have no munition cost.

the reverted changes on B4 makes it pretty good now, the FHQ needs a HP buff on the engineer built version. probably 50% hp cuz it will die in one barrage. conscript ohrah price should be lowered back to 10, the 15 to sprint isnt needed for balance i feel like its to expensive.
Kv1 need more of a buff while hulldowned

"take aim" ability should have no munition cost.

Throwing this in after balance team calls twp a no brainer. I guess it could be free if it gets half dmg lol

500mp cache sounds goood

Throwing this in after balance team calls twp a no brainer. I guess it could be free if it gets half dmg lol

Wait so you're comparing a reliable way to stun tanks at at gun range for like 45 muni (like the "OP" tulips that are getting nerfed that you at least have to aim and cost a lot) the same thing as literally vision for some muni? I don't think it should be free but your justification is a bit of a stretch.

Popcap fixing goes both ways.

In one way, you have popcap abuse. This is only a factor when USF is still in the game by the late-game (rarely).

The other side of the coin is that you have a lot of garbage units that take up more than a quarter of your popcap, without you noticing. Fancy seeing how much popcap officers/ambulance/AAHT/pak howitzers/scotts take for what they give in return for their performance?

This clogs up your popcap and eats your manpower.



Bingo.

I think ambulance, major, and a pack howie is already like 20 something pop. Meanwhile, OKW can make medhq, forward position upgrade, and isgm which is basically OKW equivalent of above, for admittedly more manpower, but like 15 minutes earlier and for like 8 pop (whatever isg popcap is).

Wait so you're comparing a reliable way to stun tanks at at gun range for like 45 muni (like the "OP" tulips that are getting nerfed that you at least have to aim and cost a lot) the same thing as literally vision for some muni? I don't think it should be free but your justification is a bit of a stretch.

In my opinion, something that has a cost (munis or debugging) attached to it excludes it from being a no brainer.

The balance team has made it clear they want to eliminate "no-brainer" abilities.

If they call something that did have a cost (twp) then what do you call something that has no cost at all? A no brainer therefore unwanted.

--> don't make an ability that gives the widest cone of fire ATG the range of an elephant and 60 sight range for free (which is what Take aim does (+10range +75% sight))

--> don't make an ability that gives the widest cone of fire ATG the range of an elephant and 60 sight range for free (which is what Take aim does (+10range +75% sight))

You do know we're working on EFA first, right? Furthermore, Take Aim costs 30 munitions.

Panther won't change much, tbh. Ostwind (projectile QoL is a mega-buff) and Brummbar (T4 availability & the fact that you can't predict which vehicle is coming out) buffs will, however. Elefant is almost a buff for USF, if Jackson wasn't such a pile of shit.

Easy:
- Fix USF popcap abuse
- Fix insane USF popcap requirements on basic units
- Make Jackson not shit
- Rationalise unit pricing for the late-game (officers cost more -> Tier units cost less; 340MP for a minelayer? wtf is this?)
- Improve USF late-game indirect fire options (Pak howie and partly the scott); so that they can break through pak-walls
- Tone down cheese doctrines

We won't do other factions though, until we're sure about the OST vs Soviet match-up.

The problem is not how the panther is powerful, it's how it is accessible.
USF is the only faction with only 3 Tiers if we consider OKW KT as a T4 on its own. Soviet and Brit have T3 and T4 TDs to deal with it, SU-76, SU-85, FireFly and Comet/churchill as damage sponge. USF only has 3 tiers and 1 tank to deal others, M36 Jackson.
Until now the Jackson was balance because Ostheer T4 comes late, because you can't really deploy a Panther before the USF can have at the same time 2 jacksons.
Now If you make the Ostheer T4 more accessible, you'll also need to make USF T3 more able to deal with it, so to buff the jackson. But what about the Ostheer T3? Buffing the jackson will make Ostheer T3 underperforming so forcing Ostheer players to go T4.

You have 3 options as far as I see.
You buff the jackson so it can deal with Ostheer T3 and T4, be ready for the Axis Fanboy spam, one unit countering two tiers isn't really what we want.
You buff the jackson so it can only deal with Ostheer T4 but how are you supposed to counter Oshteer T3 as USF?
You buff the jackson so it can only deal with Ostheer T3 but how are you supposed to counter Oshteer T4 as USF?

This is where my vision of Ostheer is difference from yours. In my Opinion Ostheer T4 is supposed to be the equivalence of OKW KT, a kind of cherry on the cake.
Ostheer isn't supposed to have the opportunity to go T4 every single game. It is supposed to do so if the game last long enough after building T3 and T3 units.
Why do we see continuously Ostheer going T3 + Tiger isn't link to how Ostheer T4 performs today. It is because Ostheer early game was too weak and Ostheer T3 still is too weak today. The modification you brought to Ostheer T3 are already good enough to make the tier sustainable on its own so you don't need a Tiger over it.
With those modifications, you'll be less pressurized by the VP's countdown and have more time to build T4.

I can see how you want to balance the game tiers per tiers between Sov and Ostheer but the game hasn't been design for that. If is has been possible so far to balance Sov and Ostheer it is also because both factions have 4 tiers with dedicated units in it.
OKW having only 3 tiers is less of a problem because it also has access to those dedicated units (jagpanzer + panther) + KT.
USF lacks of dedicated units, USF lacks of a medium TD that would be suitable vs Ostheer T3. It also lacks of super medium and heavy, even in doctrines, there is only one heavy and one super medium doctrine.
In my opinion the design you are putting in place is going to end any diversity in doctrine selection for the USF players.

You have 3 options as far as I see.
You buff the jackson so it can deal with Ostheer T3 and T4, be ready for the Axis Fanboy spam, one unit countering two tiers isn't really what we want.
You buff the jackson so it can only deal with Ostheer T4 but how are you supposed to counter Oshteer T3 as USF?
You buff the jackson so it can only deal with Ostheer T3 but how are you supposed to counter Oshteer T4 as USF?

Or you could make the rest of the USF AT arsenal relevant late game so that they aren't completely reliant on the Jackson to hold them up. At that point you could afford to specialize the Jackson to kill the heaviest armor because it wouldn't have to be your main counter to any and all vehicles anymore.

This is where my vision of Ostheer is difference from yours. In my Opinion Ostheer T4 is supposed to be the equivalence of OKW KT, a kind of cherry on the cake.

The problem with the cherry on top tier is that its tough to balance. While I understand the idea of it being something to get eventually in long 1v1s, that's rarely what happens. In most cases, you get way more bang for your buck by calling in a Tiger than paying to tech and you'll almost always have it available since it comes packaged in some of the Ost's best doctrines. Meanwhile in team games the uber-tier is going to cause the balance problems you were talking about above. The KT sees some use in 1v1s because there are other benefits to getting all your tiers up. Same deal with British Hammer/Anvil, it works because you have a bunch of other bonuses that makes the teching worthwhile, whereas it will almost always be better to get a Tiger than to tech tier 4.

Tried out the new B4 again. Seems fine to me except for one thing, the dam thing takes far too long to fire its second shot (about 8-10 seconds). No sane player will ever keep their units within the area. If it delt full 640 damages, yeah k but now it deals only half original damage, its just to long. Make around 5-6 seconds (just shorter than it is atm).

Or you could make the rest of the USF AT arsenal relevant late game so that they aren't completely reliant on the Jackson to hold them up. At that point you could afford to specialize the Jackson to kill the heaviest armor because it wouldn't have to be your main counter to any and all vehicles anymore.

How do you make USF atgun more relevant on late game? This is a real question.

On 1vs1 and 2vs2 I already rely a lot on atgun in my games, I think I'm already taking the best from them and I can tell you they are quite powerful when you use them right. The problem is they get OS by anything shooting at them on the late game like any other support weapons. So the only reliable way to make "the rest of the USF AT arsenla" relevant is to make them more durable which is, in my opinion, not really possible unless you decide to use a damage table to nerf any damage they take from any sources.
Should I also remember that USF doesn't have stock rocket arty. The way Sov/Ost/OKW can clean an area from support weapons isn't available for USF.

But I'm interested in how the modders will do, and hope they will success in their entreprise.