Brummbär overperforming

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 15:01 PMMr.Smith

solve the call-in problem.

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 16:16 PMRedT3rror

Except following things are not possible with the Ostwind:
- wiping sqauds instantly
- guaranteed model kill with each shot
- can frontally counter AT guns on range 60 (!) thanks to bunker busting barrage.
- survives 4 pak shots
- uneven terrain or fences dont bother the gun
- can shoot over shotblockers

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 16:11 PMMr.Smith

That's because you also used the Elefant commander.

With one shot, half health is gone. Brummbar can somehow penetrate tanks and then they need to run away.

If you think that Brummbar & Elefant is OP, wait till you try Elefant & Hulldown Ostwind, lol. Best thing is that you don't even have to tech and you also get Stugs from the same building.

Guys, it's the Elefant that's OP; not the Brummbar.

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 16:11 PMMr.Smith

That's because you also used the Elefant commander.

With one shot, half health is gone. Brummbar can somehow penetrate tanks and then they need to run away.

If you think that Brummbar & Elefant is OP, wait till you try Elefant & Hulldown Ostwind, lol. Best thing is that you don't even have to tech and you also get Stugs from the same building.

Guys, it's the Elefant that's OP; not the Brummbar.

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 18:16 PMPanzerGeneralForever

I gotta try that hull down ostwind... I've only done it once and I remember Bofors ROF and panther range

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 16:18 PMMr.Smith

iirc bunker-busting barrage has 80 range.

The point is, with the Elefant commander you can't even use AT guns in the first place. All their veterancy is gone when Dive Bomb is called in.

What you're describing here is the entire Elefant doctrine being OP; not the Brummbar. OST late-game is a completely different story without Elefant commander/JU-87; those other doctrines need the Brummbar to fulfil that role.

And no; USF non-doc late-game is just hopeless; there's no need bringing that faction's name up in a late-game discussion.

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 16:06 PMMr.Smith

This is a clear-cut case of the Elefant being OP. Try the same strategy without an Elefant commander, and see how that goes for you.

Throw something that can handle infantry decently together with the Elefant and you have an uncounterable strategy for 4v4.

Without the Elefant both Soviets and British have the right (non-doc) late-game tools necessary to dislodge you (SU-85, Katyusha, any non-Centaur British tank).

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 19:28 PMMr.Flush

Hey, can you guys give the m8 some type of delayed explosive barrage(like on the mortar half-track),so I can use paratroopers and not have to worry about a guarded pak 43 hiding behind a shot blocker.The commander has no arty to take it out and the majors arty does not do the trick. Rifle company also has the same issue. Delayed explosive will make it avoidable by mobile units.

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 19:40 PMLimaOscarMike

but we can't touch heavy tank destroyer without affect 1v1 2v2 mode right especially 1v1

i remember once jadgetiger used to get crew shock when they get hit from rear armor is that a glitch or somthing ? as far as i remember i've always solve Jadgetiger problem in 3v3 4v4 easily but scared the hell out when fight against the elefant

but i have no idea what it look like in 1v1 back in that day



major arty is what directly counter to Pak 43. i wish i can show you plenty of replay i have to deal with it ,so let say try to vet up major to vet2 then try to spot them and call in the barrage and that is. you only need 2 shot to land directly on Pak43 to get rid of them and i'd say this arty barrage we talking about pretty accurate

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 20:09 PMMr.Flush

It sometimes works, but it is not a direct counter and it is unreliable.I want Usf to be more open to different commander options in team games. I would like to see what Mr.smith thinks or see if he would like to have a discussion about this idea. The ''no they can't have it'' will only lead to flame wars. I want to discuss the pros and cons on balance from changes like this. I do not want the m8 to be an anti everything unit, i want it to have some counter-play mechanic (moving). A very long cool down (let's us say 2 minutes) would keep it from being spammed all over the map.

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 22:07 PMLimaOscarMike

Ok i'll leave you then. but you probably know that high explosive round does stunt and damage pretty much as cost as tullip missie right. not many people have know this because it is hard to happen since mortar half track need to get pretty close with HE round and... tank move pretty fast but with how M8 shoot his project tile will be absolutely another story

me my self used to suggest about SU-76 to have some specific anti garrison building like buff damage multipler against garrison building to it barrage ability(how should i spell) or even nerf rate of fire and change barrage ability to automatic Zis barrage that fire 3-4 round within ability circle if there is any unit spot in that circle like Overwatch from vCOH and cost more ammu like 50 muni. the problem is both light tank destroyer are spamable right now

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 14:57 PMMr.Smith

The primary issue with the infantry-demolishers class of vehicles is that they tend to overshoot a lot if left to their own devices, which leads to an even greater performance gap.

This makes an entire array of already useful units appear as useless. I've lost the count on how many times somebody has said Brummbar is useless.

Before you judge them, the list of people that complain about the "uselessness" of the Brummbar even include some of the top-most players (perhaps they play too much 1v1 and they never tech up?).

We've addressed this issue with the Stug-E already (its shots are now perfectly centered around the impact point regardless of whether you use attack ground or not), and will be doing it for all infantry demolishers.

On-topic, the Brummbar is OK for its price, and we will be adjusting the competition to its performance.

It's the whole supporting web that comes with the Brummbar (Dive Bomb, Stugs, Elefant) that make it overperform for the game modes you are concerned with, rather than the Brummbar itself. Finally, another issue that heavily skews the perception of Brummbar in these modes are:
- OKW's massively OP repair speeds (try repairing Brummbars with OST Pioneers)
- OKW's overall late-game performance

Ostheer spends the entire game being reactive/defensive; T4 needs to offer the kind of tools that let OST go on the offensive, otherwise OST will be a lame faction to play.

OST infantry can't go toe-to-toe with allied infantry; and you can't force OST to crutch on the MG42 for the duration of an entire game.

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 16:25 PMferwiner

Well, your point is much more understandable now. But you have to keep in mind that this is the result of many patches trying to make brummbar a viable tool in 1v1.

What would you propose to acheive these 3 goals at the same time:
- make brummbar less viable in 4v4,
- make brummbar more seen in 1v1 - accessibility is the issue here IMO,
- keep it as a better late game choice than stug e in any game mode?

Jump back to quoted post27 Apr 2017, 20:09 PMMr.Flush

I do not want the m8 to be an anti everything unit