Brummbär overperforming

That's because you also used the Elefant commander.

With one shot, half health is gone. Brummbar can somehow penetrate tanks and then they need to run away.

If you think that Brummbar & Elefant is OP, wait till you try Elefant & Hulldown Ostwind, lol. Best thing is that you don't even have to tech and you also get Stugs from the same building.

Guys, it's the Elefant that's OP; not the Brummbar.

Can you explain your reasoning in coming to the conclusion that the Elefant is op?

It has a 10 second reload and slower than a 90 year old in a wheel chair tied to a tree and can not fight even a single tank reliably on it's own.

Brummbär and Elefant overperforming... holy shit.

You want to know what a real problem is? Crocodile Churchill with double 6 pounders or tank destroyers in team games. But of course the priority is to nerf German lategame into the ground.

Can you explain your reasoning in coming to the conclusion that the Elefant is op?

It has a 10 second reload and slower than a 90 year old in a wheel chair tied to a tree and can not fight even a single tank reliably on it's own.

Actually Elefant is only good at defending (to a degree).I can't use it to win a game if I am using it in offense.Long reload speed and sooo slow,i don't find it OP,just 40% of time great 60% i would get a tiger.And even in defense, I will use Elefant like 60% of time.
Brummbar is very effective vs at guns,that's it.Maybe his armor it's a little higher but if you think that you have USF blob of bazoka,then it's ok.Brummar needs to be like this cause ostheer infantry is meh vs USF and very bad vs IS with double bren,5th man and vet 3.I can't use panzerwerfer to kill IS squads cause panzerwerfer is meh and too risky to move it close to the battlefield.If brummbar need's a nerf,it might be his armor.Also remember that if the enemy moves their tank,brummbar can't hit(and also damage) the tanks

Saying that Elefant & Brummbar is OP, whereas dual-wielding Vet3 Riflemen is not, reeks of double standards.

If Elefant & Brummbar is OK, then we should have never banned dual-wielding LMGs. Instead, we should have added a 3rd slot to the Riflemen to pick up a 3rd LMG, but increase price-per-LMG to 90MU. That's precisely what it is like to face Elefant & Brummbar; and that's the fault of the Elefant.

The whole point is that there are only 2 VPs you need to defend, and the Elefant negates all action on one of them. Then, there 3 teammates left to defend the VP closest to the Elefant. GGWP.

If one guy picking the Elefant is forcing the entire enemy team to go try-hard to even have a chance to counter it, then something terribly wrong. This kills strategic diversity for the team that has to face OP Elefants day in/day out, and that will eventually kill the replayability of the game, when there's no OP stuff left to counter the wunderwaffe.

If you think this is OK for 1 guy picking a doctrine to force a doctrine-pick on 4 other guys, then there's something wrong with your reasoning. That's because when the Elefant is backed by 3 other teammates, the match is extremely uneven.

This is no different from Comet spam or Artillery cover bullshit or landmattress that have already been nerfed.

If you believe that the footprint of Elefant/Jagdtiger is justifiable, we should have never nerfed Landmattress/Artillery Cover; maybe just increase their price to make them unavailable for 1v1. Instead, we should have buffed ISU, Priest, B4, Tulips etc; that way there can be enough bullshit for each side to counter the bullshit on the other side.

Then, you would never see anybody pick any other doctrine, ever. Just the same bullshit day-in day-out; similar to how if you don't have a 1-2 call-in doctrines in your loadout in 1v1, you're a loser.

Now, there's obviously a few remaining shitstains that will get have to get flushed down the toilet (e.g., Crocodile, Elefant, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, Calliope, and other things), and then the game can be interesting. We're just waiting for those to enter scope.

Saying that Elefant & Brummbar is OP, whereas dual-wielding Vet3 Riflemen is not, reeks of double standards.

If Elefant & Brummbar is OK, then we should have never banned dual-wielding LMGs. Instead, we should have added a 3rd slot to the Riflemen to pick up a 3rd LMG, but increase price-per-LMG to 90MU. That's precisely what it is like to face Elefant & Brummbar; and that's the fault of the Elefant.

The whole point is that there are only 2 VPs you need to defend, and the Elefant negates all action on one of them. Then, there 3 teammates left to defend the VP closest to the Elefant. GGWP.

If one guy picking the Elefant is forcing the entire enemy team to go try-hard to even have a chance to counter it, then something terribly wrong. This kills strategic diversity for the team that has to face OP Elefants day in/day out, and that will eventually kill the replayability of the game, when there's no OP stuff left to counter the wunderwaffe.

If you think this is OK for 1 guy picking a doctrine to force a doctrine-pick on 4 other guys, then there's something wrong with your reasoning. That's because when the Elefant is backed by 3 other teammates, the match is extremely uneven.

This is no different from Comet spam or Artillery cover bullshit or landmattress that have already been nerfed.

I don't understand how you can look at the Elefant and think "no different from Comet spam or Artillery cover or land mattress."

I also don't understand how one person choosing one of the two Elefant Doctrines forces the entire allied team of 1-3 factions to choose commanders. The only doctrinal units I can think of is the land mattress and calliope because they clear team weapons like crazy, which leaves the Elefant more or less screwed.

When an Elefant is backed by 3 other teammates, you're playing a 4v4. Port of Hamburg is pretty much the only 4v4 map where an Elefant can actually be effective because you can't flank on that bloody map. Lienne forest is another one, but it can only defend the fuel effectively. Steppes is a map where they can be effective and flanked just the same. I'm just saying: maps for 4v4s are terrible, for a balanced game or determining balance alike. And let's not forget faction design and look at what faction Elefants come from.

If you believe that the footprint of Elefant/Jagdtiger is justifiable, we should have never nerfed Landmattress/Artillery Cover; maybe just increase their price to make them unavailable for 1v1. Instead, we should have buffed ISU, Priest, B4, Tulips etc; that way there can be enough bullshit for each side to counter the bullshit on the other side.

Then, you would never see anybody pick any other doctrine, ever. Just the same bullshit day-in day-out; similar to how if you don't have a 1-2 call-in doctrines in your loadout in 1v1, you're a loser.

Seems highly speculative and dramatic.

Now, there's obviously a few remaining shitstains that will get have to get flushed down the toilet (e.g., Crocodile, Elefant, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, Calliope, and other things), and then the game can be interesting. We're just waiting for those to enter scope.

What you're saying is that there's nothing that's going to convince you otherwise that you want to nerf the Elefant how you see fit.

Elefant gets pretty good vet bonuses that drastically bring the reload time down, and it really shouldn't be frying flanked cuz it's got a maddive range and there should be about 4 squads with fausts on any given flanking route in team games. The elefant can still reverse (slowly) too, fast enough to avoid the comets/t34s coming from like a third of the map away to try and flank it after they got shot by it. On top of that it's pretty tough too.

If Elefant & Brummbar is OK, then we should have never banned dual-wielding LMGs.

You haven't done that yet. They can pick up 2x bars and or 2x Zooks.

Not to mention UKF 5 man bullshit with dual brens. Also not to mention that building the first brit tanks require 55fuel less than ostheer. Mortar pit and BOFORs still exist as well.

So yep, "allies finally balanced, now it is axis' turn" doesn't make sense.

Now, there's obviously a few remaining shitstains that will get have to get flushed down the toilet (e.g., Crocodile, Elefant, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, Calliope, and other things), and then the game can be interesting. We're just waiting for those to enter scope.

It will be boring then, not interesting. Easy game = Boring game.

Ill first admit I play 3v3 and 4v4 more than 1v1 and to a lesser extent 2v2 simply because I find them more intense.

The problem as I like to say is players scrubbing each others back. In 4v4s, most people are able to cover each others weakness, someone will go arty, someone will go heavy td, someone will main infantry and support weapons so on so forth. 3v3 is mostly fine to me, hence being my favorite game type.

On 4v4s, I have to look at the enemies doctrines and the map and scan who has a td doctrine (it almost seems mandatory honestly because there is always one). Mainly playing Soviets which in itself is near suicidal in 4v4, I would pick fab bombs because its the only thing that can take out a supported jag or elefant.

Now the elefant. The elefant first off is far less intimidating than the jagtiger. I see the elefant and I know it doesn't have insane range and armor isnt ridiculously high. However, (more of a map issue) on maps like port of hambuerge whatever its called, you can forget all armor play.

Now my problems. While it does shoot slowly (8.63 seconds, think thats slow look at the ISU and KV-2) the damage makes up for it, the problem is that is force median tanks back too easily.

Next problem is its insane reload vet that the jagtiger also inherits (20% at vet 2 and 30% at vet 3 while the ISU gets 30% at vet 2 and KV-2 gets none). So at vet 2, it shoots every 6.09 seconds and vet 3 something like 4.8 seconds.

Now the brummbar. to be honest I have not seen this unit much but when I have, its seems to do its job justifiably unlike others in it category. It is a threat to infantry while also can deter median tanks however, the armor at vet 2 may be a bit much.

Overall, Brummbar should have its armor bonus at vet 2 replaced with something else. The elefant on the other hand, I would like its damage reduced to 300 and its reload vet changed, it becomes a living nightmare once vet (dont get me started on the jagtiger). Maybe lower the health pool slightly to make heavy indirect fire more hindering (like the ml-20 that probs get stuka bombed anyway) and promote flanking (I know your suppose to but again, when supported the health pool is to high).

How about people start posting replays of how Elefant/Brum combos wrecked the game and they are super OP.

I think a lot of people would love to point out where you needed to L2P.

How about people start posting replays of how Elefant/Brum combos wrecked the game and they are super OP.

I think a lot of people would love to point out where you needed to L2P.

Not exactly a replay but it should suffice.

Well I have to agree here.. in the latest big 2v2 tourney from Currahee I had a longer match vs the very good team c.B. I was constantly using ground attack with my Brummbär, leading to many one shot full squad wipes or killing 4-5 models of a soviet squad with a single shot.

At the end my Brummbär had 169 kills!

http://imgur.com/a/Q8LhE

http://imgur.com/a/FUkLr

Unit need change, ifrts of all its attack ground, when unit hit every shoot on RNG game its bad.
And this are brilliant
Incoming:
#nobodyusesBrummbaer
#brummbaerisshit(neverusedattackground)
#alliedinfantryop
#redt3rrorsucks

Not exactly a replay but it should suffice.

Well there even is a replay but I think GCS balance preview patch nullified it unfortunately

I have to say Mr.Smith is right, I faced this strat and it is a bit OP, We only won cuz the guy way really passive but it was impossible to take ground on its side.

ITT: Arguments for more OST nerfs.

If you have trouble dealing with a Ele or a Jaghtiger in a 4v4 setting, then you are doing something very wrong.

FFS, those things are slow and cumbersome, and are extremely vulnerable to Artillery or zooked up infrantry.

Hell, even 2 good micro'd flanking T34s will deal with it

How about people start posting replays of how Elefant/Brum combos wrecked the game and they are super OP.

I think a lot of people would love to point out where you needed to L2P.

I wreck with elefant/brummbar. Usually end up carrying crappy teammates though so I might still be in placements for teamgames as ost.

ITT: Arguments for more OST nerfs.

If you have trouble dealing with a Ele or a Jaghtiger in a 4v4 setting, then you are doing something very wrong.

FFS, those things are slow and cumbersome, and are extremely vulnerable to Artillery or zooked up infrantry.

Hell, even 2 good micro'd flanking T34s will deal with it

Well sure. If it was alone. But no, there's three other players whose armies are all probably brimming with fausts and who probably have tanks of their own too.

How about people start posting replays of how Elefant/Brum combos wrecked the game and they are super OP.

I think a lot of people would love to point out where you needed to L2P.

Arty cover and comets were the direct answer to jagtigers and elephants. Both have been nerfed and now elephants and jagtigers are really hard to deal with.

I remember WBP feedback requiring a copious supply of replays for each suggestion. Why shouldn't the same apply here? I'd like to see some replays or casts where the Brummbar is over performing.

I remember WBP feedback requiring a copious supply of replays for each suggestion. Why shouldn't the same apply here? I'd like to see some replays or casts where the Brummbar is over performing.

Most casts are made for 1v1's, which practically never see a Brummbaer. They often are an issue in 3's and 4's, primarily because they wipe AT guns much too easily. The skill shot has perfect accuracy and wipes one AT gun. It normally takes two shots to wipe the other AT gun. Also, it's much better than the Sherman dozer, in spite of having similar cost.

IIRC, Relic buffed it a lot because few people were using it. The problem before wasn't so much the unit itself, it was the fact that it was at the end of a stupidly long tech tree. They should have just made T4 more available.

Saying that Elefant & Brummbar is OP, whereas dual-wielding Vet3 Riflemen is not, reeks of double standards.

If Elefant & Brummbar is OK, then we should have never banned dual-wielding LMGs. Instead, we should have added a 3rd slot to the Riflemen to pick up a 3rd LMG, but increase price-per-LMG to 90MU. That's precisely what it is like to face Elefant & Brummbar; and that's the fault of the Elefant.

The whole point is that there are only 2 VPs you need to defend, and the Elefant negates all action on one of them. Then, there 3 teammates left to defend the VP closest to the Elefant. GGWP.

If one guy picking the Elefant is forcing the entire enemy team to go try-hard to even have a chance to counter it, then something terribly wrong. This kills strategic diversity for the team that has to face OP Elefants day in/day out, and that will eventually kill the replayability of the game, when there's no OP stuff left to counter the wunderwaffe.

If you think this is OK for 1 guy picking a doctrine to force a doctrine-pick on 4 other guys, then there's something wrong with your reasoning. That's because when the Elefant is backed by 3 other teammates, the match is extremely uneven.

This is no different from Comet spam or Artillery cover bullshit or landmattress that have already been nerfed.

If you believe that the footprint of Elefant/Jagdtiger is justifiable, we should have never nerfed Landmattress/Artillery Cover; maybe just increase their price to make them unavailable for 1v1. Instead, we should have buffed ISU, Priest, B4, Tulips etc; that way there can be enough bullshit for each side to counter the bullshit on the other side.

Then, you would never see anybody pick any other doctrine, ever. Just the same bullshit day-in day-out; similar to how if you don't have a 1-2 call-in doctrines in your loadout in 1v1, you're a loser.

Now, there's obviously a few remaining shitstains that will get have to get flushed down the toilet (e.g., Crocodile, Elefant, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, Calliope, and other things), and then the game can be interesting. We're just waiting for those to enter scope.

First off, are we assuming 4v4s here? Are we assuming the best case scenarios for the elephant and brummbarr? Because I can think of countless maps where elephant and brummbarr are terrible.

In a head to head battle these units are unmatchable. In reality, they have many weaknesses number being poor mobility combined with a front facing turret.

In 4v4 they can seem OP because they're weaknesses can be covered by their allies. On the other hand, they're weaknesses can also be exploited by the enemy.

For example, a single player can't take out a brummbarr elephant combo on his own because if he tries to dive them he'll get taken out by the other axis players also passively defending the flanks and rear.

On the other hand, the Allies can also observe the elephant and brummbarr sitting defending one point and decide to all rush it together with one fell swoop and the elephant won't be able to retreat to safety fast enough.

Why do people never get elephant and brummbarr in 1v1s and only get elephants and brummbarr on very specific 2v2 maps? It's because the elephant is slow, cant react to the movements of the enemy and therefore requires a skinny open map with few shot blocks so that it can be easily bababay sat by the commander and his ally.


The problem here isn't the elephant or the brummbarr, it's the lack of coordination in 4v4 randoms.

My suggestion ---> coordinate with your team or play smaller game modes if elephant brummbarr combo is too rough.