Debuff for blobs

I apologize in advance for my lack of proper terminology as well as the possibility of this already being in the works, that being said...

Are we ever going to have some form of debuff for blobs?

Lelic seems to like them. Just like it took them years to fix the damn plane crashes wiping armies because it was "spectacular", I wouldn't be surprised if they like seeing blobs because they "show the scale of ww2" or something like that. The fact that they ruin tactical gameplay and are eye cancer is secondary to them.

Blobs are easier to control than ever. If you are having problems with a particular faction please post a replay.

If you are unsure how to use a certain unit feel free to ask, but blaming Relic for not offering tools to control them is not true.

Oh and their are several debuffs to blobs already, including the way in which received accuracy works and suppression from MGs.

Yeah, relic actually incrementally included multiple debuffs to combat blobs or even nerfed most blobby units like volks. Now its only up to a player whether he is going to punish his opponent for extensive blobing or not.

Werfer, Katy and MG's debuff blobs well enough

Year ago one of my CoH 2 mates made debuff system for blobs for his mod.
Here are some screenshots:



IOW - it is possible, but need good reason to implement it in CoH 2.

I feel like there is a misconception on why people like OP and myself would like to see a debuff to blobs in CoH2.

The reason in many cases is not that we lose games to blobs, but the fact that the absence of direct and tangible punishment for choosing to blob -- instead of making your brain and fingers work -- means blobbers don't see the reason why they shouldn't do it:

* They see their blobs kill HMGs before the latter can suppress them and think that means blobbing is the way to go, even if their blobs get punished in late game by artillery -- they will just blame it on game design for "OP" indirect fire;

* They see their blobs kill an unsupported tank, and whereas not supporting your tank means you deserve to lose it, it shouldn't justify blobbing -- but that is exactly what happens in the eyes of the blobber in question;

Etc.

The problem is not that there are no counters to blobbing. It is that even just the presence of blobs throughout a match hurts tactical gameplay -- if you don't blob and your opponent does, that still means half the tactical play is missing from that match. And that should be a problem for a community and developers of a game that pretends it is about combined arms, micro and smart thinking.

isn't the problem that MG crews still get some kind of worse received accuracy which is why they get killed from the front so often?

Blobs are easier to counter than cleverly flanking squads, try countering blob of 3 penals and 3 guards with basic ostheer composition.

Then try to do the same while 1 penal is making recon attack, while 2 are on flanks ready to flank your HMGs while Guards are waiting til you start reposition HMGs and then they rush you.

I feel like there is a misconception on why people like OP and myself would like to see a debuff to blobs in CoH2.

The reason in many cases is not that we lose games to blobs, but the fact that the absence of direct and tangible punishment for choosing to blob -- instead of making your brain and fingers work -- means blobbers don't see the reason why they shouldn't do it:

I don't want to see artificial punishment for blobbing in game.
I would like if it would be naturally impractical to blob, even though most of time I find it easier to play against blobber.

* They see their blobs kill HMGs before the latter can suppress them and think that means blobbing is the way to go, even if their blobs get punished in late game by artillery -- they will just blame it on game design for "OP" indirect fire;

Late game artillery is definitely a tool against blobber, but some arty pieces are indeed OP.

Think of Katyusha and sturmtiger.

Katy is effective only against concentrated infantry, or units with low mobility (team weapons). It is capable of wiping, but to do that reliably you need to fire from minimal distance and it comes with obvious risk.

Sturmtiger is a squad wipe machine (even against lone squads) which have no risks in comparison with Katy (high armor and hp). The only thing is bad about sturmtiger is its cost.

The problem with artificial debuffs to blobs is that it might indiscriminately punish players for blobbing who really aren't (there is a difference between mindless clump blobbing and tactical concentration of forces). Should an Ostheer player get punished for having 2 shreked up PZ Grens hanging around their other Infantry providing AT support?

The problem is that you can't really ever really decide what the criteria for a "blob" is without context. Many times you'll see high level players with 4 + squads in the same general area but its not blobbing because you can see them individually microing squads into cover or what have you. You just end up punishing players who have more squads and give an indirect advantage to the other team to get back in the game because they have a smaller army.

Personally I just make a point to always have an "anti-blob" commander in my loadouts that it my go-to when I see the other team blobbing. For example- Assault Support for its Insta AOE Pin, Calliope, Strum Tiger, Goliath, the list goes on...

The solution is simple: The more models there are close together not from the same squad, the more clumped up the blob becomes. Thus, blobs are easier to be hit by area of attack type damage. No secret modifier or cheesy stuff.

The problem with artificial debuffs to blobs is that it might indiscriminately punish players for blobbing who really aren't (there is a difference between mindless clump blobbing and tactical concentration of forces).

Or you're just trying to get back into the fight while the enemy is trying to pin you in your base along the bridges in Semoskiy :-<

(there is a difference between mindless clump blobbing and tactical concentration of forces). Should an Ostheer player get punished for having 2 shreked up PZ Grens hanging around their other Infantry providing AT support?

This depends on what kind of debuff would be implemented. If it consisted merely of increasing RA from HMG fire for concentrated infantry, that would not make difference in the sense that the Panzergrenadiers would get suppressed anyway, only post-debuff they would take more damage because they are mixed up in an unorganised concentration with other infantry, instead of tactical spacing and cover utilisation.

The problem is that you can't really ever really decide what the criteria for a "blob" is without context

A blob is a concentration of troops that would be deemed impractical and/or dangerous in a real-life combat scenario.

I apologize in advance for my lack of proper terminology as well as the possibility of this already being in the works, that being said...

Are we ever going to have some form of debuff for blobs?

not trying to call ppl noob or nothing but when u see a blob...and u dont punish it... its ur fault... the debuff it gains already it potential to lose all ur troops in a sceond.... ppl need to stop being noob and stop complaining about blobs....just punish them. why should troops get weaker when they are surround by other soldier u would think they would gain some kind of confidence when grouped and supported by one another

The problem with artificial debuffs to blobs is that it might indiscriminately punish players for blobbing who really aren't (there is a difference between mindless clump blobbing and tactical concentration of forces). Should an Ostheer player get punished for having 2 shreked up PZ Grens hanging around their other Infantry providing AT support?

The problem is that you can't really ever really decide what the criteria for a "blob" is without context. Many times you'll see high level players with 4 + squads in the same general area but its not blobbing because you can see them individually microing squads into cover or what have you. You just end up punishing players who have more squads and give an indirect advantage to the other team to get back in the game because they have a smaller army.

+1

There's also the issue that currently, incremental accuracy/suppression only works with number of models and not squads. So say 4 man squads blobbing around have less punishment that 3 conscripts.

This depends on what kind of debuff would be implemented. If it consisted merely of increasing RA from HMG fire for concentrated infantry, that would not make difference in the sense that the Panzergrenadiers would get suppressed anyway, only post-debuff they would take more damage because they are mixed up in an unorganised concentration with other infantry, instead of tactical spacing and cover utilisation.


A blob is a concentration of troops that would be deemed impractical and/or dangerous in a real-life combat scenario.

Problem with incremental accuracy for MGs, is that it also affects AoE suppression, which also affects suppression rate for different squads. A 6man squad get's suppressed faster than 4/5 man squads.

Copy pasted from an old post
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With the current game mechanics, it's not as "easy" as just increasing some values.

A blob is a concentration of troops that would be deemed impractical and/or dangerous in a real-life combat scenario.

Well yes... the general definition is that a blob is a "large concentration of troops". But the point I"m trying to make is that when it comes to the nitty gritty programming side of it you can't just say "well duh, you aren't playing "correctly" and blobbing so you get a debuff"

Relic would have to say "Debuff when X number of squads are within X Meters". Sure you can add modifiers like "X number of the same squad" but then you get into all kinds of goofy conundrums. What about USF and UKF? They only have 1 kind of combat infantry if you go certain commanders and the whole point of those factions is that you use weapon racks to diversify. Are 2 Zook Rifles and 2 BAR rifles a blob? Would it be "impractical" to have 4+ Sappers if you've gone Anvil and have a lot of high HP Churchill tanks to repair? What about forward retreat points? God forbid you ever get pinned after a mass retreat and then you're doubly screwed because you're debuffed on top of it all.

It's just really difficult to implement without a whole slew of possible side effects that would break the game.

Relic would have to say "Debuff when X number of squads are within X Meters". Sure you can add modifiers like "X number of the same squad" but then you get into all kinds of goofy conundrums.

The only potential debuff I've talked about in this thread concerns RA while suppressed by an HMG. That takes care of much, if not all, of the generally legitimate issue you've raised.

Step 1. Insta-pin with DsK 38
Step 2. Fire katy at healing station

Player xyz has been replaced by AI

Blobs are easier to control than ever. If you are having problems with a particular faction please post a replay.

If you are unsure how to use a certain unit feel free to ask, but blaming Relic for not offering tools to control them is not true.

Oh and their are several debuffs to blobs already, including the way in which received accuracy works and suppression from MGs.

Indeed,

I, as a long experienced CoH - player dont want to weak blobs in this hard way. Just learn to play...There are enough options to handle blobs.