Grenadier 4-man Squad: A thing of the past.

Yes, but just looking at what has been suggested in the past month or so and assuming it is not realistic to implement many of them I find this one would somewhat cancel out other changes that make more sense to me overall. Take say single weapon slots for IS and riflemen, wouldn't it be a bit much to add another grenadier member on top of that?

Well maybe, but then I haven't argued for any of those changes so I don't know what they have to do with me. I'm only trying to address what I see as the problem of Wehr vulnerability to squad wipes.

I look at it from a different point of view. The underlying problem that should be tackled imo is 4-men squad survivability, regardless of role. Just because Grens happen to be main line infantry doesn't make them an exception that needs special attention.

I don't. It is the fact that Grens are line inf that makes them significant. The rest, well maybe you could look at them after making such a change for Grens and seeing if it works out.

Vet1 volks with 20% more DPS and LMG, that is what you're asking for here.
That would walk over anything, including rifles in early game.

To have a zero sum on stats, they'd have to be as strong as pre-buffed 235mp volks.

So then increase them to 260 mp?

It's really not hard.

So then increase them to 260 mp?

It's really not hard.

And shit on perfect balance against soviets, right?

Fanboys have this habit of never being able to see outside their beloved faction/unit.

And shit on perfect balance against soviets, right?

Fanboys have this habit of never being able to see outside their beloved faction/unit.

althought I agree with you ,you shouldn't really say those words

I look at it from a different point of view. The underlying problem that should be tackled imo is 4-men squad survivability, regardless of role. Just because Grens happen to be main line infantry doesn't make them an exception that needs special attention.

BTW, Sturmpioneers are very different from Wehr pios because they are combat effective and way more expensive in terms of acquisition and reinforce.

Regardless of Army then as well since the Axis are not the only ones with 4 man squads.

Plus I never said they were similar, I only stated that they had the same number of men in the squad and largely the same role, Sturmpioneers not having to build any of the base structures unlike the Pioneers but unlike them they have a more dangerous job of totting around a Panzerschreck fighting off enemy vehicles, and being a more expensive unit overall.

Well maybe, but then I haven't argued for any of those changes so I don't know what they have to do with me. I'm only trying to address what I see as the problem of Wehr vulnerability to squad wipes.

Regardless of Army then as well since the Axis are not the only ones with 4 man squads.

Plus I never said they were similar, I only stated that they had the same number of men in the squad and largely the same role, Sturmpioneers not having to build any of the base structures unlike the Pioneers but unlike them they have a more dangerous job of totting around a Panzerschreck fighting off enemy vehicles, and being a more expensive unit overall.

we are not saying that grenadier doesn't have an issue. we are saying there areother way to deal with the problem beside giving them a fifth man and ruining their identity.

Better RA, better squad spacing, nerfing AOE, more HP etc. Giving them a fifth man is such a drastic change that we prefer to use it as the last option.

For all the option we've been mentioning, the two of you seems obsessiveness with the idea of giving them a fifth man.

And shit on perfect balance against soviets, right?

Fanboys have this habit of never being able to see outside their beloved faction/unit.

This coming from one of the most well known allied fanboys, how ironic

we are not saying that grenadier doesn't have an issue. we are saying there areother way to deal with the problem beside giving them a fifth man and ruining their identity.

Better RA, better squad spacing, nerfing AOE, more HP etc. Giving them a fifth man is such a drastic change that we prefer to use it as the last option.

For all the option we've been mentioning, the two of you seems obsessiveness with the idea of giving them a fifth man.

Their identity? What identity? You mean your nostalgia? Their voices and camo are shit, they are performing like shit, you want to keep that identity? Fine then but don't force it on the rest of us.

Plus, having a 5th model means not losing 25% of the squad's overall firepower if a model dies, which seems to be working for the rest of the mainline infantry squads so far.

The things people have suggested here should be implemented in all of the squads, not just the Grenadiers, especially the spacing, that's just a no brainer.

And who are "you" or "we" exactly, or are you someone presenting the entire CoH 2 (modding) community or are part of the developer team by any chance? If not then I suggest you refrain from using that word as I'd rather take a bullet to the head than let you speak out for me.

And you seem obsessive with keeping them a 4 man squad because of their "identity" and your nostalgia without giving a damn about the state of balance with them.

Love the arguments about not giving Grens a 5th man because it would ruin the Ostheer vs Soviet matchup. Meanwhile terminator buffs for the Allied factions are fine and Ostheer just needs to l2p

Love the arguments about not giving Grens a 5th man because it would ruin the Ostheer vs Soviet matchup. Meanwhile terminator buffs for the Allied factions are fine and Ostheer just needs to l2p

Muh nostalgia, muh grenadier identity!

Plus, having a 5th model means not losing 25% of the squad's overall firepower if a model dies, which seems to be working for the rest of the mainline infantry squads so far.

Technically, this is incorrect. For LMG grens losing a single model will only degrade their DPS by, about, 16%.

Grenadiers seem to have been designed in a way that their rifles deal decent damage, and LMG42 deals massive damage (and accounts for about 50% of the squad's DPS). That way, even a depleted squad will be able to punch above their weight.

Their identity? What identity? You mean your nostalgia? Their voices and camo are shit, they are performing like shit, you want to keep that identity? Fine then but don't force it on the rest of us.

Plus, having a 5th model means not losing 25% of the squad's overall firepower if a model dies, which seems to be working for the rest of the mainline infantry squads so far.

The things people have suggested here should be implemented in all of the squads, not just the Grenadiers, especially the spacing, that's just a no brainer.

And who are "you" or "we" exactly, or are you someone presenting the entire CoH 2 (modding) community or are part of the developer team by any chance? If not then I suggest you refrain from using that word as I'd rather take a bullet to the head than let you speak out for me.

And you seem obsessive with keeping them a 4 man squad because of their "identity" and your nostalgia without giving a damn about the state of balance with them.

why are there even different factions to begin with?

virtually all tournament to day have been done with allies vs axis. People don't pick different factions just for the "voices and camo", they pick them for the different player style and strategy.

If balance was the only thing that matter, the simplest solution would be to only play mirror match all day everyday.

and a 4 men line infantry squad is still very much a doable concept. There's no denying that wehr is suffering right now, but the 4 men element is still a viable design. It feels like you are treating 5 men grenadier as the end instead of a mean.

if wehr grenadier get a fifth man, the US and Soviet are going to ask for advanced tank in their tech tree as well. Wehr get better tanks (panther, brummbar), while the soviet and americans get better line infantry (rifleman, penal). I think the design is still viable, even if the current implement is flawed in many way.

Muh nostalgia, muh grenadier identity!

Love the arguments about not giving Grens a 5th man because it would ruin the Ostheer vs Soviet matchup. Meanwhile terminator buffs for the Allied factions are fine and Ostheer just needs to l2p

Attitude like this is why the powercreep happened. The soviet and USF were suffering horrible manpower bleed from the grenadier's lmg42, and the the terminator buff was an over reaction to the grenadier lmg42.

one bad decision doesn't justify another. The terminator veterancy was a poor decision and adding a 5th men to the grenadier will just dig ourselves deeper.

If u want identity then the solution is simple,give the 4 models 100 hp each(or an upgrade to that effect).20 extra hp per model will serve the same purpose as a 5th man,while keeping them 4 man visually.Problem solved.
(This was the approach in coh1.
In coh2 grens orignally had armour to compensate for small size.)

But i know allied fanboys like katitof will find some excuse,whatever.Game isnt really worth playing anymore at current state.

If u want identity then the solution is simple,give the 4 models 100 hp each(or an upgrade to that effect).20 extra hp per model will serve the same purpose as a 5th man,while keeping them 4 man visually.Problem solved.
(This was the approach in coh1.
In coh2 grens orignally had armour to compensate for small size.)

But i know allied fanboys like katitof will find some excuse,whatever.Game isnt really worth playing anymore at current state.

Excuse?

Its called consistency.
All infantry units have 80 hp per model for a reason you potato.
2% hp bulletins proved extremely overpowered and you want to give additional 25% hp?

I could explain this reason to you, but that would be less productive and would achieve less then painting the grass green.

Original conscripts also had DPS exactly the same as grens, that is why grens had armor.
Please Ostherlitz, for a SINGLE post in your career on .org, RESEARCH YOUR SHIT so you know what you actually talk about just once!

Your ubermensh domination dreams will remain just that-dreams.
You're also the absolutely LAST person on this forums to call anyone fanboy.

Excuse?

Its called consistency.
All infantry units have 80 hp per model for a reason you potato.
2% hp bulletins proved extremely overpowered and you want to give additional 25% hp?

I could explain this reason to you, but that would be less productive and would achieve less then painting the grass green.

Original conscripts also had DPS exactly the same as grens, that is why grens had armor.
Please Ostherlitz, for a SINGLE post in your career on .org, RESEARCH YOUR SHIT so you know what you actually talk about just once!

Your ubermensh domination dreams will remain just that-dreams.
You're also the absolutely LAST person on this forums to call anyone fanboy.

it's not just dps difference. the grenadier have smaller target size as well. Unfortunately target size doesn't work against explosive.

Target size can be more easily rationalized as better training and situational awareness making the grenadier harder to kill. Higher HP is harder to rationalize, but I still prefer it to adding another man.

It doesn't even have to be 100 hp. Even adding 2 hp to the sniper had a noticeable effect.

Technically, this is incorrect. For LMG grens losing a single model will only degrade their DPS by, about, 16%.

Grenadiers seem to have been designed in a way that their rifles deal decent damage, and LMG42 deals massive damage (and accounts for about 50% of the squad's DPS). That way, even a depleted squad will be able to punch above their weight.

As long as they don't come in with an LMG by default this is the case only when they are upgraded, and we all know Wehr is the most ammo starved Army.

As long as they don't come in with an LMG by default this is the case only when they are upgraded, and we all know Wehr is the most ammo starved Army.

Before they get LMG, that isn't relevant, because there is nothing that can rapidly kill models short for soviet sniper.

Before they get LMG, that isn't relevant, because there is nothing that can rapidly kill models short for soviet sniper.

He's spamming penels into T34-76, you got only 3 grens out, besides dumping 60 ammo into each squad for that artificial 5th team member that can be dropped and can't fire on the move you also have elsewhere to dump ammo, Panzershreck for the Panzergrenadiers for example, mine sweepers, etc...

What do?

Edit: I still haven't seen proof of what you've previously said tho, looks like you're hiding from my comments until the opportune moment for you to reply to me.